Discussion:
U.S. sees democracy coming in post-Castro Cuba
(too old to reply)
PL
2005-10-01 10:14:16 UTC
Permalink
U.S. sees democracy coming in post-Castro Cuba(Updated 02:40 p.m.)


2005/10/1
WASHINGTON (AP)



Fidel Castro looks like the 79-year-old he is, and the Bush administration
has big ideas for Cuba once he departs.
When that day comes, U.S. officials want to leave as little to chance as
possible about the island nation's political fate. They are prepared to go
to some lengths to ensure that the communist system Castro created goes out
with him.
It is official U.S. policy to "undermine" Cuba's planned succession from
Castro to his brother Raul, 74. Just how that process would unfold is not
clear.
"We are looking to support a genuine transition to political freedom for the
Cuban people," said Caleb McCarry, the State Department official recently
put in charge of transition matters for Cuba.
McCarry, a Republican who spent many years on Capitol Hill as an aide on
Latin American issues, refused in an interview to talk about how the United
States would carry out its policy on Cuban succession.
McCarry's appointment on July 28, with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice
presiding, was one of the few at the department made in front of television
cameras.
It gave Rice a platform for denouncing communist rule in Cuba, a stance
perceived as a political winner for years among constituencies in South
Florida and elsewhere in the country.
The appointment of a "transition coordinator" for Cuba arose in a 2004
report to President George W. Bush by the Commission for Assistance to a
Free Cuba, led by then-Secretary of State Colin Powell.
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help if
and when democratically inclined leaders take power.
Bush said upon the report's release, "We believe the people of Cuba should
be free from tyranny. We believe the future of Cuba is a future of freedom."
The prospect of political transitions in other countries usually does not
merit much attention. Cuba, however, is a special case.
A friendly government in Havana would mean an end to a security headache for
Washington that has lasted 46 years.
According to the report last year, it would not take long after Castro's
demise to buy 100,000 tons (90,720 metric tons) of food and ship it to Cuba.
U.S. charities would be encouraged to create and contribute to a foundation
to aid a "Free Cuba." American government officials would carry out a
"hands-on needs assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been
drawn up to upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.
The 400-plus page report discusses ways to modernize Cuba's aviation,
railroad and maritime infrastructure. It envisions U.S. aid in holding free
and fair elections, fighting corruption and establishing independent trade
unions.
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has advocated
establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is outraged by the
administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in the internal affairs
of another state," Smith said.
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the transition.
Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.
The president of Cuba's National Assembly, Ricardo Alarcon, likens the U.S.
plan to an annexation or occupation of Cuba. He says the United States would
regard Cuba "as a piece of land administered by the U.S."
"The whole strategy," Alarcon said in reference to the report, "is getting
in forever."
Castro, not surprisingly, debunks the notion that any change is needed in
Cuba.
"We had our transition in 1959," he has said, the year he took power.
McCarry rejects charges that Washington's assistance plan is a blueprint for
U.S. control.
"The offer is not an imposition," he said, asserting that none of the
proposed programs would go into place without the consent of the
transitional government on the island.
McCarry noted that some of the recommendations in Powell's report already
are in effect.
Measures to reduce travel to Cuba by Americans as well as by Cuban-Americans
are believed to have reduced the island's dollar income by some $500 million
(?415 million) over the past two years, McCarry said.
TV Marti, a U.S. government broadcasting service to the island, reaches more
households in Cuba these days because new technology has been able partially
to overcome Cuban jamming, he said.
"We need to give Cubans the opportunity for a different future and better
future," McCarry said. "What people lack under the dictatorship is hope.
They have to hope there will be a better future."
___
On the Net:
State Department: http://www.state.gov
CIA Factbook on Cuba:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html


http://www.chinapost.com.tw/i_latestdetail.asp?id=31190
tony fernandez
2005-10-01 11:12:25 UTC
Permalink
First of all it is not up to the U.S. government to determine what kind
of government the Cuban people should have.
Secondly the U.S. does not really believe or care about democracy o
the self determination of other nations. This is evident in the fact
that the U.S. was the only government to embrace the cooup in Venezuela.
In Haiti the U.S. is attempting to create another puppet government that
oppresses the majority party.
In Algeria the U.S. never said a word when the military stopped the
democratic lections because the Islamic salvation party was going to win
by a landslide. In fact there is and never has been a trade embargo
emposed on the Algerian military government.
The U.S. has historically supported the most repressive anti
democratic regimes in the world, the Shah of Iran, Marcos in the
phillipines, Somoza in Nicaraguaand Pinniche in Chil where they
actively conspired to overthrow their 120+ year old democracy.
In short all this BS about democracy is propqaganda for internal
domestic purposes.
PL
2005-10-01 11:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
First of all it is not up to the U.S. government to determine what kind
of government the Cuban people should have.
Nope.
It is up to the Cubans to do that in a free and fair manner.
That they can't at the moment because of the dictatorship.
In no way that excludes the US to post their assessment and hope.
Post by tony fernandez
Secondly the U.S. does not really believe or care about democracy o
the self determination of other nations.
Wrong.
After WW2 they left western Europe free to decide it's future.
It is the USSR that installed "remote controlled" dictatorships.
History (as so often) proves you wrong.

The communists arrive and stay. The US arrives and leaves.

PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-01 16:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Wrong again PL the U.S. does create and maintain remote controlled
dictatorship. The U.S. is every bit as if not more repressive to South
and central America as the Soviets was to eastern Europe and that is the
reason that they hate the Cuban government so much. It is the only
government that has stood up to the U.S. and is an inspiration to others
(Venezuela) to stand up to the U.S. bully. In Haiti the U.S. supports
a reprssive government by remote control and is planning a show election
that will not allow the Lavala party to run heir candidate.
In Egypt the U.S. supports another dictatorship that they also
control by remote control. So all the evidence seems to contradict
your spin on the true situation.
PL
2005-10-01 17:00:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
Wrong again PL
are you claiming the USA occupied Westren Eurrope like the USSR did in the
East?
Post by tony fernandez
the U.S. does create and maintain remote controlled
dictatorship.
I only see an end to dictatorships in Latin America (with the exception of
Cuba).
Those are the facts.

PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-01 20:19:01 UTC
Permalink
PL doesn't want to see the truth, He doesn't denie that the U.S.
oppresses the LAtin American ountries, overthrowing the democratically
elected governments like in Guatemala, Chile and Haiti. The only
government to recognize the coupist who overthrew the Venezuelan
democracy. The U.S. has used terror and teaches torture in the school
of the America for its would be puppet dictators but instead PL seeks to
focus on Europe and the former soviet Union. PL doesn't denie that the
U.S. used and continues to use the threat of gunboat diplomacy to
subjugate the people of south and central America. Today they threaten
the popular and deocratically elected government of Venezuela.
They seek to set up a puppet government in Iraq and commit all kinds
of trocities and crimes against humanity and still PL holds the U.S. up
as some kind of role model for humanity. that reminds me of the saying
" there is none so blind as he who ill not see".
PL
2005-10-01 20:50:05 UTC
Permalink
PL doesn't want to see the truth, (snip)
Nope. Tony.
I see the thruth.
I see freedom in Western Europe, never occupied as Eastern Europe was.
I see profound democratic changes all over Latin America except in Cuba.

PL
Barry Schier
2005-10-02 04:54:46 UTC
Permalink
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone (and wagers are being taken, in view of the announcement that the
troop level will change downwards while U.S. plans and hopes in the
region remain unchanged, when and if the United States will ever leave
Iraq and Afghanistan). The U.S. has 77+ military bases around the
world.

Although now favoring elections between Tweedledee and Tweedledum
instead of the Iron Heel, the U.S. government ran "remote controlled"
dictatorships -- from the Shah of Iran, to regimes in Latin America and
Central America (e.g., brutal CIA-installed rulers of post-coup Brazil,
post-coup Guatemala, Nicaragua's Somoza), and Africa (e.g., Congo's
Mobutu).

Of course, there are cases where the United States came and left --
AFTER the deaths of a couple million Vietnamese and 54,000+ U.S. GIs,
the U.S. left Indochina -- because of combination of gunfire directed
at its troops abroad and political fire being directed at its foreign
policy by its citizens at home in protest demonstrations of up to half
million people. The tale of Clark AFB in the Philippines, Culebra and
Vieques in the U.S. semicolony of Puerto Rico and others are stories of
protests forcing the U.S. to leave. But, most importantly, the U.S.
did leave Cuba -- when Fidel Castro (after co-leading a revolution
which ousted a U.S. puppet dictator) did what needed to be done,
providing a model that the peoples of the semicolonial world should
follow (and at the root of U.S. hatred for the Cuban Revolution)
nationalizing holdings of the Yankees --- down to the nails of their
boots. One exception: It has been OVER A CENTURY that the United
States came into -- and NEVER LEFT -- Guatanamo Bay, which is
U.S.-occupied CUBAN territory; however, PL (qua apologist for U.S.
imperialism, albeit only as an honorary member of Washington's Little
Havana cheerleading section since he is a Belgian national) writes with
a straight face that "The US arrives and leaves."

Imperialism's heyday was over a century ago! U.S. out of Iraq,
Afghanistan, S. Korea, etc. NOW!!

-- Barry Schier
Post by PL
Post by tony fernandez
First of all it is not up to the U.S. government to determine what kind
of government the Cuban people should have.
Nope.
It is up to the Cubans to do that in a free and fair manner.
That they can't at the moment because of the dictatorship.
In no way that excludes the US to post their assessment and hope.
Post by tony fernandez
Secondly the U.S. does not really believe or care about democracy o
the self determination of other nations.
Wrong.
After WW2 they left western Europe free to decide it's future.
It is the USSR that installed "remote controlled" dictatorships.
History (as so often) proves you wrong.
The communists arrive and stay. The US arrives and leaves.
PL
krp !
2005-10-02 09:52:03 UTC
Permalink
self proclaimed Marxist
Post by Barry Schier
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone (and wagers are being taken, in view of the announcement that the
troop level will change downwards while U.S. plans and hopes in the
region remain unchanged, when and if the United States will ever leave
Iraq and Afghanistan). The U.S. has 77+ military bases around the
world.
Although now favoring elections between Tweedledee and Tweedledum
instead of the Iron Heel, the U.S. government ran "remote controlled"
dictatorships -- from the Shah of Iran, to regimes in Latin America and
Central America (e.g., brutal CIA-installed rulers of post-coup Brazil,
post-coup Guatemala, Nicaragua's Somoza), and Africa (e.g., Congo's
Mobutu).
Of course, there are cases where the United States came and left --
AFTER the deaths of a couple million Vietnamese and 54,000+ U.S. GIs,
the U.S. left Indochina -- because of combination of gunfire directed
at its troops abroad and political fire being directed at its foreign
policy by its citizens at home in protest demonstrations of up to half
million people. The tale of Clark AFB in the Philippines, Culebra and
Vieques in the U.S. semicolony of Puerto Rico and others are stories of
protests forcing the U.S. to leave. But, most importantly, the U.S.
did leave Cuba -- when Fidel Castro (after co-leading a revolution
which ousted a U.S. puppet dictator) did what needed to be done,
providing a model that the peoples of the semicolonial world should
follow (and at the root of U.S. hatred for the Cuban Revolution)
nationalizing holdings of the Yankees --- down to the nails of their
boots. One exception: It has been OVER A CENTURY that the United
States came into -- and NEVER LEFT -- Guatanamo Bay, which is
U.S.-occupied CUBAN territory; however, PL (qua apologist for U.S.
imperialism, albeit only as an honorary member of Washington's Little
Havana cheerleading section since he is a Belgian national) writes with
a straight face that "The US arrives and leaves."
Imperialism's heyday was over a century ago! U.S. out of Iraq,
Afghanistan, S. Korea, etc. NOW!!
Afghanistan has been neutralized as a terrorist base. But why not admit
the Communist role in Afghanistan and its defeat there? No you are not up
to that level of honesty are you? Why not admit that Iraq was a client state
of the USSR under Hussein?
Dan Christensen
2005-10-03 04:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp !
self proclaimed Marxist
Post by Barry Schier
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone (and wagers are being taken, in view of the announcement that the
troop level will change downwards while U.S. plans and hopes in the
region remain unchanged, when and if the United States will ever leave
Iraq and Afghanistan). The U.S. has 77+ military bases around the
world.
Although now favoring elections between Tweedledee and Tweedledum
instead of the Iron Heel, the U.S. government ran "remote controlled"
dictatorships -- from the Shah of Iran, to regimes in Latin America and
Central America (e.g., brutal CIA-installed rulers of post-coup Brazil,
post-coup Guatemala, Nicaragua's Somoza), and Africa (e.g., Congo's
Mobutu).
Of course, there are cases where the United States came and left --
AFTER the deaths of a couple million Vietnamese and 54,000+ U.S. GIs,
the U.S. left Indochina -- because of combination of gunfire directed
at its troops abroad and political fire being directed at its foreign
policy by its citizens at home in protest demonstrations of up to half
million people. The tale of Clark AFB in the Philippines, Culebra and
Vieques in the U.S. semicolony of Puerto Rico and others are stories of
protests forcing the U.S. to leave. But, most importantly, the U.S.
did leave Cuba -- when Fidel Castro (after co-leading a revolution
which ousted a U.S. puppet dictator) did what needed to be done,
providing a model that the peoples of the semicolonial world should
follow (and at the root of U.S. hatred for the Cuban Revolution)
nationalizing holdings of the Yankees --- down to the nails of their
boots. One exception: It has been OVER A CENTURY that the United
States came into -- and NEVER LEFT -- Guatanamo Bay, which is
U.S.-occupied CUBAN territory; however, PL (qua apologist for U.S.
imperialism, albeit only as an honorary member of Washington's Little
Havana cheerleading section since he is a Belgian national) writes with
a straight face that "The US arrives and leaves."
Imperialism's heyday was over a century ago! U.S. out of Iraq,
Afghanistan, S. Korea, etc. NOW!!
Afghanistan has been neutralized as a terrorist base. But why not admit
the Communist role in Afghanistan and its defeat there? No you are not up
to that level of honesty are you? Why not admit that Iraq was a client
state of the USSR under Hussein?
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely circulated
photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't
matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he looked out for US
"interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp !
2005-10-03 14:26:51 UTC
Permalink
BAGHDAD DANNY
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Barry Schier
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone (and wagers are being taken, in view of the announcement that the
troop level will change downwards while U.S. plans and hopes in the
region remain unchanged, when and if the United States will ever leave
Iraq and Afghanistan). The U.S. has 77+ military bases around the
world.
Although now favoring elections between Tweedledee and Tweedledum
instead of the Iron Heel, the U.S. government ran "remote controlled"
dictatorships -- from the Shah of Iran, to regimes in Latin America and
Central America (e.g., brutal CIA-installed rulers of post-coup Brazil,
post-coup Guatemala, Nicaragua's Somoza), and Africa (e.g., Congo's
Mobutu).
Of course, there are cases where the United States came and left --
AFTER the deaths of a couple million Vietnamese and 54,000+ U.S. GIs,
the U.S. left Indochina -- because of combination of gunfire directed
at its troops abroad and political fire being directed at its foreign
policy by its citizens at home in protest demonstrations of up to half
million people. The tale of Clark AFB in the Philippines, Culebra and
Vieques in the U.S. semicolony of Puerto Rico and others are stories of
protests forcing the U.S. to leave. But, most importantly, the U.S.
did leave Cuba -- when Fidel Castro (after co-leading a revolution
which ousted a U.S. puppet dictator) did what needed to be done,
providing a model that the peoples of the semicolonial world should
follow (and at the root of U.S. hatred for the Cuban Revolution)
nationalizing holdings of the Yankees --- down to the nails of their
boots. One exception: It has been OVER A CENTURY that the United
States came into -- and NEVER LEFT -- Guatanamo Bay, which is
U.S.-occupied CUBAN territory; however, PL (qua apologist for U.S.
imperialism, albeit only as an honorary member of Washington's Little
Havana cheerleading section since he is a Belgian national) writes with
a straight face that "The US arrives and leaves."
Imperialism's heyday was over a century ago! U.S. out of Iraq,
Afghanistan, S. Korea, etc. NOW!!
Afghanistan has been neutralized as a terrorist base. But why not
admit the Communist role in Afghanistan and its defeat there? No you are
not up to that level of honesty are you? Why not admit that Iraq was a
client state of the USSR under Hussein?
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely circulated
photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't
matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he looked out for
US "interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis
were given minor help to avert catastrophe, being overrun by a FANATIC
Islamic terrorist state. Never close to them at all. BUT let's note that
while they were SLEEPING WITH the Soviets torture was the rule of the day.
And during that time under the EYES of their Communist buddies ...........
We now see almost half a million so far from mass graves. Let us also NOTE
that while there was a formal meeting (photo shaking hands - diplomatic
necessity) Shall we refer to Soviet leaders shaking hands with Adolph
Hitler? How about Fidel shaking hands with POL POT? Not to mention the
North Korean dictators. The FACT is that the U.S. REFUSED to provide
weapons to Hussein's Iraq. Merely gave some "loan guarantees" so they could
buy SOVIET WEAPONS..................................
Dan Christensen
2005-10-03 15:59:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp !
BAGHDAD DANNY
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Barry Schier
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone (and wagers are being taken, in view of the announcement that the
troop level will change downwards while U.S. plans and hopes in the
region remain unchanged, when and if the United States will ever leave
Iraq and Afghanistan). The U.S. has 77+ military bases around the
world.
Although now favoring elections between Tweedledee and Tweedledum
instead of the Iron Heel, the U.S. government ran "remote controlled"
dictatorships -- from the Shah of Iran, to regimes in Latin America and
Central America (e.g., brutal CIA-installed rulers of post-coup Brazil,
post-coup Guatemala, Nicaragua's Somoza), and Africa (e.g., Congo's
Mobutu).
Of course, there are cases where the United States came and left --
AFTER the deaths of a couple million Vietnamese and 54,000+ U.S. GIs,
the U.S. left Indochina -- because of combination of gunfire directed
at its troops abroad and political fire being directed at its foreign
policy by its citizens at home in protest demonstrations of up to half
million people. The tale of Clark AFB in the Philippines, Culebra and
Vieques in the U.S. semicolony of Puerto Rico and others are stories of
protests forcing the U.S. to leave. But, most importantly, the U.S.
did leave Cuba -- when Fidel Castro (after co-leading a revolution
which ousted a U.S. puppet dictator) did what needed to be done,
providing a model that the peoples of the semicolonial world should
follow (and at the root of U.S. hatred for the Cuban Revolution)
nationalizing holdings of the Yankees --- down to the nails of their
boots. One exception: It has been OVER A CENTURY that the United
States came into -- and NEVER LEFT -- Guatanamo Bay, which is
U.S.-occupied CUBAN territory; however, PL (qua apologist for U.S.
imperialism, albeit only as an honorary member of Washington's Little
Havana cheerleading section since he is a Belgian national) writes with
a straight face that "The US arrives and leaves."
Imperialism's heyday was over a century ago! U.S. out of Iraq,
Afghanistan, S. Korea, etc. NOW!!
Afghanistan has been neutralized as a terrorist base. But why not
admit the Communist role in Afghanistan and its defeat there? No you
are not up to that level of honesty are you? Why not admit that Iraq was
a client state of the USSR under Hussein?
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely circulated
photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't
matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he looked out for
US "interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis
were given minor help to avert catastrophe, being overrun by a FANATIC
Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp !
2005-10-04 00:56:17 UTC
Permalink
BAGHDAD DAN
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.)
It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he
looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those
pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with Iran when
it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe, being overrun by a
FANATIC Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.
All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary, not
even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft. ALL of
the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word "ALL" means
Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST were Soviet but they
also had some French and German made gunships and helicopters used to spray
chemicals on people. We could go to the TANKS...................... ALL of
them Soviet............... We could go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet.
AK-47's RPG's, the like. And honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD
missiles were NOT American built! Got anything that proves otherwise
bullshitter?
Dan Christensen
2005-10-04 02:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp !
BAGHDAD DAN
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were
best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then, as
long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing and
gassing those pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with Iran when
it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe, being overrun by a
FANATIC Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.
All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary, not
even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft. ALL of
the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word "ALL" means
Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST were Soviet but
they also had some French and German made gunships and helicopters used to
spray chemicals on people. We could go to the TANKS......................
ALL of them Soviet............... We could go to munitions.......... ALL
Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And honeybuns, last time *I* checked the
SCUD missiles were NOT American built! Got anything that proves otherwise
bullshitter?
Sorry, Kenny, but we will need something a little more than this. Ask the
kid next door to show you how to use Google, and do your homework. Remember,
you are trying to prove that "during the war with Iran when it appeared Iraq
was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given
minor help to avert catastrophe." There's a good lad. Now run along!

Brace yourselves, folks; I smell yet another Kennykins Whopper on the grill!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp !
2005-10-04 12:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were
best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then, as
long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing and
gassing those pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with Iran when
it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe, being overrun by a
FANATIC Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.
All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary,
not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft. ALL
of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word "ALL"
means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST were Soviet
but they also had some French and German made gunships and helicopters
used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to the
TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We could go
to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And
honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American
built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?
Sorry, Kenny, but we will need something a little more than this. Ask the
kid next door to show you how to use Google, and do your homework.
Remember, you are trying to prove that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis
were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There's a good lad. Now run
along!
What do you need?

Let's see

http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/airforce.htm


As you BULLSHIT so magnificently Danny boy..... Chew on this COMPLETE LIST
of the Iraqi Air Force...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment.htm

If you note from the chart.................... 100% of their hardware were
SOVIET built! 100% Danny Boy! Know what 100% is?

Do I NEED to post the SAME types of charts for the Tanks etc?

What the U.S. Gave Iraq was some "loan guarantees" so they could buy more
Soviet WAR gear! Which was seen as preferable to Iraq LOSING and Iraq also
being under a RADICAL TERRORIST rule. Sometimes you have to help one bad
guy against a worse bad guy. You have to hold your nose and go with the
lesser of TWO EVILS....


But it is interesting is that at that point BOTH SIDES were Soviet
(COMMUNIST) client states.
Dan Christensen
2005-10-04 20:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were
best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then,
as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing
and gassing those pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with Iran
when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe, being
overrun by a FANATIC Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.
All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary,
not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft. ALL
of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word "ALL"
means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST were Soviet
but they also had some French and German made gunships and helicopters
used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to the
TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We could
go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And
honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American
built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?
Sorry, Kenny, but we will need something a little more than this. Ask the
kid next door to show you how to use Google, and do your homework.
Remember, you are trying to prove that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There's a good lad.
Now run along!
What do you need?
Let's see
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/airforce.htm
As you BULLSHIT so magnificently Danny boy..... Chew on this COMPLETE LIST
of the Iraqi Air Force...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment.htm
Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a lot
of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it appeared
Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given
minor help to avert catastrophe."

Do keep trying though.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PM
2005-10-05 00:10:28 UTC
Permalink
email this print this reprint or license this
Posted on Tue, Oct. 04, 2005



M O R E N E W S F R O M
. Financial Services




Construction jobs spur Florida's job growth, report says

BY MATTHEW HAGGMAN

***@herald.com


Florida's galloping economy has accounted for one-fifth of all new
jobs added nationally since 2001, when the last recession ended, according
to a Tuesday report by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.

The big driver of the job gains in Florida: residential construction.

The housing boom in the state, which has resulted in cranes sprouting
up across South Florida and new homes dotting vast swaths of formerly vacant
land, comprised a quarter of the new private-sector jobs in the state.

Florida has added 500,000 total jobs since 2001, according to the FDIC
report profiling the state's banking sector and its general economic
conditions. Nearly 400,000 of those new positions were in the private
sector.

But the report highlighted an ongoing and increasingly critical
problem. Florida is adding jobs, but not jobs paying wages that can buy a
median-price home in the state.


email this print this reprint or license this
--
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.html
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ForFreedomandJustice/
"Live-Free-or-Die" "...one nation UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST"
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm


http://www.memesolis.com/

http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were
best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then,
as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing
and gassing those pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with Iran
when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe, being
overrun by a FANATIC Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.
All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary,
not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft. ALL
of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word "ALL"
means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST were Soviet
but they also had some French and German made gunships and helicopters
used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to the
TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We could
go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And
honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American
built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?
Sorry, Kenny, but we will need something a little more than this. Ask the
kid next door to show you how to use Google, and do your homework.
Remember, you are trying to prove that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There's a good lad.
Now run along!
What do you need?
Let's see
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/airforce.htm
As you BULLSHIT so magnificently Danny boy..... Chew on this COMPLETE LIST
of the Iraqi Air Force...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment.htm
Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a lot
of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it appeared
Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given
minor help to avert catastrophe."

Do keep trying though.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
tony fernandez
2005-10-07 00:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Well if Floridas Construction jobs account for one fifth of all new jobs
added nationally then the situation is worse then the government
pretends it to be. Construction jobs are generally temporary and not
very high paying. The people who build the homes cannot afford to buy
them today in the booming real estate market. Even people who bought
their homes before the boom are beginning to see their " American
Dream " turn into a nightmare as the rise in their property tax takes a
bigger chunk of their income. People who rent property are also feeling
the squeeze as their landlord is also forced to raise the rent to deal
with their increase in property taxes.
krp !
2005-10-05 11:14:04 UTC
Permalink
PROPAGANDA MINISTER
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were
best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then,
as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing
and gassing those pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with Iran
when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe,
being overrun by a FANATIC Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.
All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary,
not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft. ALL
of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word "ALL"
means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST were
Soviet but they also had some French and German made gunships and
helicopters used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to the
TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We could
go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And
honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American
built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?
Sorry, Kenny, but we will need something a little more than this. Ask
the kid next door to show you how to use Google, and do your homework.
Remember, you are trying to prove that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There's a good lad.
Now run along!
What do you need?
Let's see
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/airforce.htm
As you BULLSHIT so magnificently Danny boy..... Chew on this COMPLETE
LIST of the Iraqi Air Force...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment.htm
Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a lot
of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis
were given minor help to avert catastrophe."
Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under Hussein
was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were American? Now
let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?

1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the United
States..

and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a diplomatic
event!

THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war with
Iran.

I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO direct
American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The COMMUNIST Bloc.....
100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every last bullet was made in
COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to chew for a bit on some "CUBAN
military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?


Think you might want to change position here and tell us that Iraq had the
BEST democracy in the middle east? The BEST health care system? It was FREE
Danny!

You are so TOTALLY FULL OF SHIT!
Dan Christensen
2005-10-05 20:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp !
PROPAGANDA MINISTER
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were
best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then,
as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing
and gassing those pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with Iran
when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe,
being overrun by a FANATIC Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.
All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary,
not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft.
ALL of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word
"ALL" means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST
were Soviet but they also had some French and German made gunships and
helicopters used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to the
TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We could
go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And
honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American
built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?
Sorry, Kenny, but we will need something a little more than this. Ask
the kid next door to show you how to use Google, and do your homework.
Remember, you are trying to prove that "during the war with Iran when
it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There's a good lad.
Now run along!
What do you need?
Let's see
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/airforce.htm
As you BULLSHIT so magnificently Danny boy..... Chew on this COMPLETE
LIST of the Iraqi Air Force...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment.htm
Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a
lot of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."
Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under Hussein
was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were American? Now
let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?
The issue is that, as usual, you have no evidence to support your claims.
Put up or shut up, Kenny!
Post by krp !
1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the United
States..
and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a diplomatic
event!
It is well known that the US supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Only a
pathological liar like you, Kenny, would deny it.
Post by krp !
THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war with
Iran.
I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO
direct American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The COMMUNIST
Bloc..... 100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every last bullet was
made in COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to chew for a bit on some
"CUBAN military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?
Look harder, Kenny. You have nothing on the Soviet reaction to the war. All
you have baseless speculation. Do your homework and get back to us when you
have some FACTS. Until you do, do not expect a reply from me.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netco.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp !
2005-10-06 13:09:17 UTC
Permalink
MINISTER OF MISINFORMATION
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime
were best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See
widely circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back
then, as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region,
bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with Iran
when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe,
being overrun by a FANATIC Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.
All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A
LOW LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant
secretary, not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft.
ALL of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word
"ALL" means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST
were Soviet but they also had some French and German made gunships
and helicopters used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to the
TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We
could go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like.
And honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT
American built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?
Sorry, Kenny, but we will need something a little more than this. Ask
the kid next door to show you how to use Google, and do your homework.
Remember, you are trying to prove that "during the war with Iran when
it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There's a good
lad. Now run along!
What do you need?
Let's see
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/airforce.htm
As you BULLSHIT so magnificently Danny boy..... Chew on this COMPLETE
LIST of the Iraqi Air Force...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment.htm
Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a
lot of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."
Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under
Hussein was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were
American? Now let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?
The issue is that, as usual, you have no evidence to support your claims.
Put up or shut up, Kenny!
Those sourced do PRECISELY THAT DANNY! You remind me of Baghdad Bob
SWEARING to the media at a presser that "ther are NO American Tanks in Iraq"
as an M-1-A-1 drive past in the background of the shot. Danny boy you ARE
funny as hell...........
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the
United States..
and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a diplomatic
event!
It is well known that the US supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Only a
pathological liar like you, Kenny, would deny it.
It is widely CLAIMED Danny - that doesn't make it TRUE... It wasn't.
100% of Iraq's military crap came from its COMMUNIST masters.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war with
Iran.
I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO
direct American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The COMMUNIST
Bloc..... 100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every last bullet was
made in COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to chew for a bit on some
"CUBAN military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?
Look harder, Kenny. You have nothing on the Soviet reaction to the war.
All you have baseless speculation. Do your homework and get back to us
when you have some FACTS. Until you do, do not expect a reply from me.
Baseless? That they supplied Iraq with ALL their military aircraft?
Soviet aircraft, by the way, that were suffering great attrition against two
decade OLD American gear the Iranians had. BLOWN out of the sky Danny!
What did I PROVE.............. that 100% of the Iraqi air force were
COMMUNIST built gear. Not ONE American plane of ANY kind. That 100% of the
tanks etc were COMMUNIST made, not ONE American plane. That 100% of their
missiles came from COMMUNIST nations. NONE were American.


I did my homework now you just have to LIE YOUR ASS OFF - - AS USUAL! The
tactic of continuing the LIE in the face of OVERWHELMING contrary evidence
is amusing Danny. Which is why we now call you BAGHDAD DAN!
Dan Christensen
2005-10-06 21:41:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp !
MINISTER OF MISINFORMATION
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime
were best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See
widely circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back
then, as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region,
bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with Iran
when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe,
being overrun by a FANATIC Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.
All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A
LOW LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant
secretary, not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft.
ALL of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word
"ALL" means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST
were Soviet but they also had some French and German made gunships
and helicopters used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to
the TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We
could go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like.
And honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT
American built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?
Sorry, Kenny, but we will need something a little more than this. Ask
the kid next door to show you how to use Google, and do your
homework. Remember, you are trying to prove that "during the war with
Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."
There's a good lad. Now run along!
What do you need?
Let's see
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/airforce.htm
As you BULLSHIT so magnificently Danny boy..... Chew on this COMPLETE
LIST of the Iraqi Air Force...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment.htm
Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a
lot of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."
Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under
Hussein was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were
American? Now let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?
The issue is that, as usual, you have no evidence to support your claims.
Put up or shut up, Kenny!
Those sourced do PRECISELY THAT DANNY! You remind me of Baghdad Bob
SWEARING to the media at a presser that "ther are NO American Tanks in
Iraq" as an M-1-A-1 drive past in the background of the shot. Danny boy
you ARE funny as hell...........
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the
United States..
and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a diplomatic
event!
It is well known that the US supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Only a
pathological liar like you, Kenny, would deny it.
It is widely CLAIMED Danny - that doesn't make it TRUE... It wasn't.
100% of Iraq's military crap came from its COMMUNIST masters.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war with
Iran.
I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO
direct American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The
COMMUNIST Bloc..... 100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every last
bullet was made in COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to chew for a
bit on some "CUBAN military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?
Look harder, Kenny. You have nothing on the Soviet reaction to the war.
All you have baseless speculation. Do your homework and get back to us
when you have some FACTS. Until you do, do not expect a reply from me.
Baseless? That they supplied Iraq with ALL their military aircraft?
Soviet aircraft, by the way, that were suffering great attrition against
two decade OLD American gear the Iranians had. BLOWN out of the sky
Danny! What did I PROVE.............. that 100% of the Iraqi air force
were COMMUNIST built gear. Not ONE American plane of ANY kind. That 100%
of the tanks etc were COMMUNIST made, not ONE American plane. That 100% of
their missiles came from COMMUNIST nations. NONE were American.
You have provided NO PROOF here of your claim that "during the war with Iran
when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There is no mention here
whatsover any sort of "Soviet guidance" from your sources. There is no
mention whatsoever of the Soviet reaction to the war.

Looks like you got burned again, Kennykins! You must be getting used to it
by now. Hee, hee, hee!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
+ krp!
2005-10-07 01:53:24 UTC
Permalink
MINISTER OF MISINFORMATION
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime
were best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong.
(See widely circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam
making nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed
back then, as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the
region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with
Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT
Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert
catastrophe, being overrun by a FANATIC Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.
All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A
LOW LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant
secretary, not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft.
ALL of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the
word "ALL" means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different.
MOST were Soviet but they also had some French and German made
gunships and helicopters used to spray chemicals on people. We
could go to the TANKS...................... ALL of them
Soviet............... We could go to munitions.......... ALL
Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And honeybuns, last time *I*
checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American built! Got anything
that proves otherwise bullshitter?
Sorry, Kenny, but we will need something a little more than this.
Ask the kid next door to show you how to use Google, and do your
homework. Remember, you are trying to prove that "during the war
with Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT
Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert
catastrophe." There's a good lad. Now run along!
What do you need?
Let's see
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/airforce.htm
As you BULLSHIT so magnificently Danny boy..... Chew on this COMPLETE
LIST of the Iraqi Air Force...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment.htm
Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a
lot of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."
Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under
Hussein was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were
American? Now let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?
The issue is that, as usual, you have no evidence to support your
claims. Put up or shut up, Kenny!
Those sourced do PRECISELY THAT DANNY! You remind me of Baghdad Bob
SWEARING to the media at a presser that "ther are NO American Tanks in
Iraq" as an M-1-A-1 drive past in the background of the shot. Danny boy
you ARE funny as hell...........
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the
United States..
and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a diplomatic
event!
It is well known that the US supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Only a
pathological liar like you, Kenny, would deny it.
It is widely CLAIMED Danny - that doesn't make it TRUE... It wasn't.
100% of Iraq's military crap came from its COMMUNIST masters.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war
with Iran.
I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO
direct American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The
COMMUNIST Bloc..... 100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every
last bullet was made in COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to chew
for a bit on some "CUBAN military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?
Look harder, Kenny. You have nothing on the Soviet reaction to the war.
All you have baseless speculation. Do your homework and get back to us
when you have some FACTS. Until you do, do not expect a reply from me.
Baseless? That they supplied Iraq with ALL their military aircraft?
Soviet aircraft, by the way, that were suffering great attrition against
two decade OLD American gear the Iranians had. BLOWN out of the sky
Danny! What did I PROVE.............. that 100% of the Iraqi air force
were COMMUNIST built gear. Not ONE American plane of ANY kind. That 100%
of the tanks etc were COMMUNIST made, not ONE American plane. That 100%
of their missiles came from COMMUNIST nations. NONE were American.
You have provided NO PROOF here of your claim that "during the war with
Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There is
no mention here whatsover any sort of "Soviet guidance" from your sources.
There is no mention whatsoever of the Soviet reaction to the war.
Looks like you got burned again, Kennykins! You must be getting used to it
by now. Hee, hee, hee!
Danny tell me. do you believe this insane shit you keep saying or is it
mental illness? Do you need me to document that Iraq was LOSING? Do I need
to prove that Iranian forced were within 100 miles of Baghdad? Here I was
answering YOUR rather preposterous claims that Iraq was a CLOSE ally of the
U.S. and the Americans were supplying them with Arms etc. Silly me, you
moved the goal posts again when I blew up that mountain of bullshit. HEY I'M
OVER HERE NOW! Need to have your ass kicked on that point too Danny?

ASS KICKING #2

http://www.geocities.com/iran_iraq_war/


http://www.iranchamber.com/history/iran_iraq_war/iran_iraq_war1.php

"Despite Iraqi success in causing major damage to exposed Iranian ammunition
and fuel dumps in the early days of the war, the Iranian air force prevailed
initially in the air war. One reason was that Iranian airplanes could carry
two or three times more bombs or rockets than their Iraqi counterparts.
Moreover, Iranian pilots demonstrated considerable expertise. For example,
the Iranian air force attacked Baghdad and key Iraqi air bases as early as
the first few weeks of the war, seeking to destroy supply and support
systems. The attack on Iraq's oil field complex and air base at Al Walid,
the base for T-22 and Il-28 bombers, was a well-coordinated assault. The
targets were more than 800 kilometers from Iran's closest air base at
Urumiyeh, so the F-4s had to refuel in midair for the mission. Iran's air
force relied on F-4s and F-5s for assaults and a few F-14s for
reconnaissance. Although Iran used its Maverick missiles effectively against
ground targets, lack of airplane spare parts forced Iran to substitute
helicopters for close air support. Helicopters served not only as gunships
and troop carriers but also as emergency supply transports. In the
mountainous area near Mehran, helicopters proved advantageous in finding and
destroying targets and maneuvering against antiaircraft guns or man-portable
missiles. During Operation Karbala Five and Operation Karbala Six, the
Iranians reportedly engaged in large-scale helicopter-borne operations on
the southern and central fronts, respectively. Chinooks and smaller Bell
helicopters, such as the Bell 214A, were escorted by Sea Cobra choppers."

In confronting the Iraqi air defense, Iran soon discovered that a low-flying
group of two, three, or four F-4s could hit targets almost anywhere in Iraq.
Iranian pilots overcame Iraqi SA-2 and SA-3 antiaircraft missiles, using
American tactics developed in Vietnam; they were less successful against
Iraqi SA-6s. Iran's Western-made air defense system seemed more effective
than Iraq's Soviet-made counterpart. Nevertheless, Iran experienced
difficulty in operating and maintaining Hawk, Rapier, and Tigercat missiles
and instead used antiaircraft guns and man-portable missiles. "


Now SHUT UP LITTLE BOY and go to your room. NO SUPPER FOR YOU TONIGHT!!!!
BAGHDAD DAN!



http://i-cias.com/e.o/iranirqw.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War
Dan Christensen
2005-10-08 05:31:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by + krp!
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime
were best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong.
(See widely circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam
making nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed
back then, as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the
region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with
Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT
Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert
catastrophe, being overrun by a FANATIC Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.
All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A
LOW LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant
secretary, not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting
aircraft. ALL of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know
what the word "ALL" means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is
different. MOST were Soviet but they also had some French and
German made gunships and helicopters used to spray chemicals on
people. We could go to the TANKS...................... ALL of them
Soviet............... We could go to munitions.......... ALL
Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And honeybuns, last time *I*
checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American built! Got anything
that proves otherwise bullshitter?
Sorry, Kenny, but we will need something a little more than this.
Ask the kid next door to show you how to use Google, and do your
homework. Remember, you are trying to prove that "during the war
with Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT
Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert
catastrophe." There's a good lad. Now run along!
What do you need?
Let's see
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/airforce.htm
As you BULLSHIT so magnificently Danny boy..... Chew on this
COMPLETE LIST of the Iraqi Air Force...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment.htm
Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought
a lot of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing
here suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when
it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance,
the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."
Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under
Hussein was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were
American? Now let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?
The issue is that, as usual, you have no evidence to support your
claims. Put up or shut up, Kenny!
Those sourced do PRECISELY THAT DANNY! You remind me of Baghdad Bob
SWEARING to the media at a presser that "ther are NO American Tanks in
Iraq" as an M-1-A-1 drive past in the background of the shot. Danny boy
you ARE funny as hell...........
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the
United States..
and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a
diplomatic event!
It is well known that the US supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Only
a pathological liar like you, Kenny, would deny it.
It is widely CLAIMED Danny - that doesn't make it TRUE... It wasn't.
100% of Iraq's military crap came from its COMMUNIST masters.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war
with Iran.
I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO
direct American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The
COMMUNIST Bloc..... 100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every
last bullet was made in COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to
chew for a bit on some "CUBAN military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?
Look harder, Kenny. You have nothing on the Soviet reaction to the war.
All you have baseless speculation. Do your homework and get back to us
when you have some FACTS. Until you do, do not expect a reply from me.
Baseless? That they supplied Iraq with ALL their military aircraft?
Soviet aircraft, by the way, that were suffering great attrition against
two decade OLD American gear the Iranians had. BLOWN out of the sky
Danny! What did I PROVE.............. that 100% of the Iraqi air force
were COMMUNIST built gear. Not ONE American plane of ANY kind. That 100%
of the tanks etc were COMMUNIST made, not ONE American plane. That 100%
of their missiles came from COMMUNIST nations. NONE were American.
You have provided NO PROOF here of your claim that "during the war with
Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There
is no mention here whatsover any sort of "Soviet guidance" from your
sources. There is no mention whatsoever of the Soviet reaction to the
war.
Looks like you got burned again, Kennykins! You must be getting used to
it by now. Hee, hee, hee!
Danny tell me. do you believe this insane shit you keep saying or is it
mental illness? Do you need me to document that Iraq was LOSING?
We need you to document your claim that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis
were given minor help to avert catastrophe." You have failed to do so and
have once again exposed yourself for the desperate liar that you are. Face
it, you got burned again, Kennykins!


Here's a little something else to chew on. Enjoy.

"Western support for Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war has clearly been
established. It is no secret that the Soviet Union, West Germany, France,
the United States, many western companies, and Britain provided military
support and even components of Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction program.
The role the United States played in the war against Iran however is not as
well known.

"After the revolution, with the Ayatollahs in power and levels of enmity
between Iran and the U.S. running high, early on during the Iran-Iraq war,
realpolitikers in Washington came to the conclusion that Saddam was the
lesser of the two evils, and hence efforts to support Iraq became the order
of the day, both during the long war with Iran and afterward. This led to
what later became known as the Iraq-gate scandals.

"Much of what Iraq received from the West, however, were not arms per se,
but so-called dual-use technology- mainframe computers, armored ambulances,
helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian uses as well
as military applications. It is now known that a vast network of companies,
based in the U.S. and elsewhere, fed Iraq's warring capabilities right up
until August 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#US-Iraqi_arms_transfers_in_the_war

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
+ krp!
2005-10-08 12:14:27 UTC
Permalink
BAGHDAD DAN MINISTER OF MISINFORMATION
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by + krp!
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime
were best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong.
(See widely circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and
Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured
or killed back then, as long as he looked out for US
"interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky
Iranians.
NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with
Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT
Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert
catastrophe, being overrun by a FANATIC Islamic terrorist state.
Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.
All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event.
A LOW LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant
secretary, not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting
aircraft. ALL of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know
what the word "ALL" means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is
different. MOST were Soviet but they also had some French and
German made gunships and helicopters used to spray chemicals on
people. We could go to the TANKS...................... ALL of
them Soviet............... We could go to munitions.......... ALL
Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And honeybuns, last time *I*
checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American built! Got anything
that proves otherwise bullshitter?
Sorry, Kenny, but we will need something a little more than this.
Ask the kid next door to show you how to use Google, and do your
homework. Remember, you are trying to prove that "during the war
with Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT
Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert
catastrophe." There's a good lad. Now run along!
What do you need?
Let's see
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/airforce.htm
As you BULLSHIT so magnificently Danny boy..... Chew on this
COMPLETE LIST of the Iraqi Air Force...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment.htm
Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought
a lot of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing
here suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when
it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance,
the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."
Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under
Hussein was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were
American? Now let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?
The issue is that, as usual, you have no evidence to support your
claims. Put up or shut up, Kenny!
Those sourced do PRECISELY THAT DANNY! You remind me of Baghdad Bob
SWEARING to the media at a presser that "ther are NO American Tanks in
Iraq" as an M-1-A-1 drive past in the background of the shot. Danny boy
you ARE funny as hell...........
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the
United States..
and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a
diplomatic event!
It is well known that the US supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Only
a pathological liar like you, Kenny, would deny it.
It is widely CLAIMED Danny - that doesn't make it TRUE... It
wasn't. 100% of Iraq's military crap came from its COMMUNIST masters.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war
with Iran.
I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO
direct American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The
COMMUNIST Bloc..... 100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every
last bullet was made in COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to
chew for a bit on some "CUBAN military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?
Look harder, Kenny. You have nothing on the Soviet reaction to the
war. All you have baseless speculation. Do your homework and get back
to us when you have some FACTS. Until you do, do not expect a reply
from me.
Baseless? That they supplied Iraq with ALL their military aircraft?
Soviet aircraft, by the way, that were suffering great attrition
against two decade OLD American gear the Iranians had. BLOWN out of
the sky Danny! What did I PROVE.............. that 100% of the Iraqi
air force were COMMUNIST built gear. Not ONE American plane of ANY
kind. That 100% of the tanks etc were COMMUNIST made, not ONE American
plane. That 100% of their missiles came from COMMUNIST nations. NONE
were American.
You have provided NO PROOF here of your claim that "during the war with
Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There
is no mention here whatsover any sort of "Soviet guidance" from your
sources. There is no mention whatsoever of the Soviet reaction to the
war.
Looks like you got burned again, Kennykins! You must be getting used to
it by now. Hee, hee, hee!
Danny tell me. do you believe this insane shit you keep saying or is
it mental illness? Do you need me to document that Iraq was LOSING?
We need you to document your claim that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." You have failed to do
so and have once again exposed yourself for the desperate liar that you
are. Face it, you got burned again, Kennykins!
Danny the FACT that Iraq was losing is evidence by the FACT that Iran's
troops were within 100 miles of Baghdad INSIDE Iraq. The FACT that the U.S.
offerent only minimal help (loan gurantees and a few sattelite photos) is
also a FACT I have previously documented in this thread.
Post by Dan Christensen
Here's a little something else to chew on. Enjoy.
"Western support for Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war has clearly been
established. It is no secret that the Soviet Union, West Germany, France,
the United States, many western companies, and Britain provided military
support and even components of Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction program.
The role the United States played in the war against Iran however is not
as well known.
Because it didn't happen.
Post by Dan Christensen
"After the revolution, with the Ayatollahs in power and levels of enmity
between Iran and the U.S. running high, early on during the Iran-Iraq war,
realpolitikers in Washington came to the conclusion that Saddam was the
lesser of the two evils, and hence efforts to support Iraq became the
order of the day, both during the long war with Iran and afterward. This
led to what later became known as the Iraq-gate scandals.
TRYE - only as far as it goes.........
Post by Dan Christensen
"Much of what Iraq received from the West, however, were not arms per se,
but so-called dual-use technology- mainframe computers, armored
ambulances, helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian
uses as well as military applications. It is now known that a vast network
of companies, based in the U.S. and elsewhere, fed Iraq's warring
capabilities right up until August 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#US-Iraqi_arms_transfers_in_the_war
NOT even ONE American helicopter - they DID get some FRENCH and German
helicopters as I previously posted. Yes some American companies provided
ambulances (FORD).. Again I went down the OFFICIAL list of Armaments used
by Iraq, and NONE were American made. ALL were made in COMMUNIST Nations.
It is hilarious that YOU . . . COMRADE CHRISTENSEN would complain most
loudly about American involvement while YOUR SIDE was a million times more
involved. Supplied ALL the weapons...As has been proven.


CHEW ON THIS AGAIN BULLSHITTER!! From the source above"

"Iraq's army was primarily armed with weaponry it had purchased from the
Soviet Union and its satellites in the preceding decade. During the war, it
purchased billions of dollars worth of advanced equipment from the Soviets
and the French [2], as well as from the People's Republic of China, Egypt,
Germany, and other sources (including European facilities for making and/or
enhancing chemical weapons). Germany [3] along with other Western countries
(among them United Kingdom, France, Spain (Explosivos Alaveses), Italy and
the United States) provided Iraq with biological and chemical weapons
technology and the precursors to nuclear capabilities. Much of Iraq's
financial backing came from other Arab states, notably oil-rich Kuwait and
Saudi Arabia.
Iran's foreign supporters included Syria and Libya, through which it
obtained Scuds. It purchased weaponry from North Korea and the People's
Republic of China, notably the Silkworm antiship missile. Iran acquired
weapons and parts for its Shah-era US systems through covert arms
transactions from officials in the Reagan Administration, first indirectly
(possibly through Israel) and then directly. It was hoped Iran would, in
exchange, persuade several radical groups to release Western hostages,
though this did not result; proceeds from the sale were diverted to the
Nicaraguan Contras in what became known as the Iran-Contra Affair.

((NOTE the parts and weapons provided to Iran did NOT work. They got SCAMMED
by Oliver North!))

"Iraq's air force used Soviet weapons and reflected Soviet training,
although it expanded and upgraded its fleet considerably as the war
progressed. It conducted strategic bombing using Tupolev Tu-16 Badgers. Its
fighters included the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21, later supplemented by large
purchases of Sukhoi Su-22s and French Dassault Mirage F1s. It also deployed
the Anglo-French Aérospatiale Gazelle attack helicopter and the Exocet
antiship missile.[5]"

The FRENCH were supplying arms to Iraw until the DAY that Baghdad fell!
To the SECOND!

Now as to your "AMERICAN" involvement...

"The Iraq-gate scandal revealed that an Atlanta branch of Italy's largest
bank, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, relying partially on U.S.
taxpayer-guaranteed loans, funneled $5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989. In
August 1989, when FBI agents finally raided the Atlanta branch of BNL, the
branch manager, Christopher Drogoul, was charged with making unauthorized,
clandestine, and illegal loans to Iraq-some of which, according to his
indictment, were used to purchase arms and weapons technology."

HARDLY the United States government!
Dan Christensen
2005-10-10 03:23:06 UTC
Permalink
" + krp!" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:DKO1f.1324$***@trnddc03...

[snip portions of Kenny's pathetic posting already debunked here, or too
lame to bother with]
Post by + krp!
Now as to your "AMERICAN" involvement...
"The Iraq-gate scandal revealed that an Atlanta branch of Italy's largest
bank, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, relying partially on U.S.
taxpayer-guaranteed loans, funneled $5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989.
In August 1989, when FBI agents finally raided the Atlanta branch of BNL,
the branch manager, Christopher Drogoul, was charged with making
unauthorized, clandestine, and illegal loans to Iraq-some of which,
according to his indictment, were used to purchase arms and weapons
technology."
HARDLY the United States government!
On the contrary, the US regime was in it up to their eyeballs -- from Reagan
to Clinton. See:

http://www.counterpunch.org/boles1010.html
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1992/h920519l.htm
http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/1993/11/pizzo.html
http://www.oilempire.us/saddam.html

And anyway, what has this got to do your original claim that, "during the
war with Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe?" Absolutely
nothing you post here points to any sort of "Soviet guidance." On the
contrary, the above articles point to US guidance, and its massive and
covert financing of the Iraqi war effort. Looks like you got burned again,
Kennykins!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
+ krp !
2005-10-10 13:52:34 UTC
Permalink
COMRADE DAN MINISTER OF MISINFORMATION
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip portions of Kenny's pathetic posting already debunked here, or too
lame to bother with] TRANSLATION: Danny is going to bullshit overdrive.
Post by + krp!
Now as to your "AMERICAN" involvement...
"The Iraq-gate scandal revealed that an Atlanta branch of Italy's largest
bank, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, relying partially on U.S.
taxpayer-guaranteed loans, funneled $5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989.
In August 1989, when FBI agents finally raided the Atlanta branch of BNL,
the branch manager, Christopher Drogoul, was charged with making
unauthorized, clandestine, and illegal loans to Iraq-some of which,
according to his indictment, were used to purchase arms and weapons
technology."
HARDLY the United States government!
On the contrary, the US regime was in it up to their eyeballs -- from
BULLSHIT!
Post by Dan Christensen
http://www.counterpunch.org/boles1010.html
ZERO credibility! Thge man quotes was a Lt. Colonel HARDY a HIGH RANKING
PENTAGON BRASS type or much in the "know." FAR LEFT Internet blog bullshit.
Post by Dan Christensen
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1992/h920519l.htm Lantos is a
certifiable whck job rehashing the same tired old bullshit kicked around
since 1987. BULLSHIT.
http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/1993/11/pizzo.html Interesting
that Mother Jones article, hostile as it is, supports what I said, that
the U.S. involvement was in loan GURANTTEE and NOT in supplying arms...
Too bad Danny you LOSE yet again!
http://www.oilempire.us/saddam.html Tell me Danny did you ejaculate in
your jeans gettign an acyal copy of Rumsfeld then a MINOR public official,
assistant secretary to the assistan secretray to the secretary of mops
pails and brooms? Depite what you rsource claims Danny - Rumsfeld was
NOT "secretary of defense in 1983!" Jesus man! That is scuah an
INCREDIBLE anti-war site (read as MARXIST HARDLINER SUPPORTED) it is
ludicroups and NOT at all credible. It offered NO SUPPORT for its claim
that the U.S. suppled "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION" to Hussein. Again the
INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIABLE FACT is that the U.S. provided ONLY some
sattelite photos, ONE Lt. Colonel who made a 2 day visit to "advise"
(explain the friggin sattelite photos) and some LOAN gurantees. The U.S.
did NOT supply even ONE BULLET. Like with the OIL FOR FOOD scandal
irresponsible American companies DID supply supplies used for making
chemical and biological weapons. THEY WERE ALSO EVENTUALLYPROESCUTED for
it Danny!
And anyway, what has this got to do your original claim that, "during the
war with Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT
Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe?"
Absolutely nothing you post here points to any sort of "Soviet guidance."
On the contrary, the above articles point to US guidance, and its massive
and covert financing of the Iraqi war effort. Looks like you got burned
again, Kennykins!
The FACT is that Iranian troops were deep inside Iraq, less than 100
miles from Baghdad! The Iraqis were a Soviet CLIENT STATE and their military
was being "ADVISED" by Soviet officers.. I would say that when the enemy is
in your territory, occupying almost 30% of your country, and within 100
miles of your capital, it is safe to say that the "ADVISE" you were getting
was not real good! Danny 100% of the military hardware Iraq had was SOVIET!
Do you REALLY want a source showing that there were Soviet Advisors in Iraq?
Danny why not cut your losses? Isn't your ass sore enough from the kicking??


You own sources largely verify what I have said.
PM
2005-10-04 14:19:56 UTC
Permalink
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also available COVERING CUBA 3: Elian the real story of injustice and
deception by the U.S. government and the American media
Daniel
2005-10-05 12:01:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
self proclaimed Marxist
Post by Barry Schier
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone (and wagers are being taken, in view of the announcement that the
troop level will change downwards while U.S. plans and hopes in the
region remain unchanged, when and if the United States will ever leave
Iraq and Afghanistan). The U.S. has 77+ military bases around the
world.
Although now favoring elections between Tweedledee and Tweedledum
instead of the Iron Heel, the U.S. government ran "remote controlled"
dictatorships -- from the Shah of Iran, to regimes in Latin America and
Central America (e.g., brutal CIA-installed rulers of post-coup Brazil,
post-coup Guatemala, Nicaragua's Somoza), and Africa (e.g., Congo's
Mobutu).
Of course, there are cases where the United States came and left --
AFTER the deaths of a couple million Vietnamese and 54,000+ U.S. GIs,
the U.S. left Indochina -- because of combination of gunfire directed
at its troops abroad and political fire being directed at its foreign
policy by its citizens at home in protest demonstrations of up to half
million people. The tale of Clark AFB in the Philippines, Culebra and
Vieques in the U.S. semicolony of Puerto Rico and others are stories of
protests forcing the U.S. to leave. But, most importantly, the U.S.
did leave Cuba -- when Fidel Castro (after co-leading a revolution
which ousted a U.S. puppet dictator) did what needed to be done,
providing a model that the peoples of the semicolonial world should
follow (and at the root of U.S. hatred for the Cuban Revolution)
nationalizing holdings of the Yankees --- down to the nails of their
boots. One exception: It has been OVER A CENTURY that the United
States came into -- and NEVER LEFT -- Guatanamo Bay, which is
U.S.-occupied CUBAN territory; however, PL (qua apologist for U.S.
imperialism, albeit only as an honorary member of Washington's Little
Havana cheerleading section since he is a Belgian national) writes with
a straight face that "The US arrives and leaves."
Imperialism's heyday was over a century ago! U.S. out of Iraq,
Afghanistan, S. Korea, etc. NOW!!
Afghanistan has been neutralized as a terrorist base. But why not admit
the Communist role in Afghanistan and its defeat there? No you are not up
to that level of honesty are you? Why not admit that Iraq was a client
state of the USSR under Hussein?
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely circulated
photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't
matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he looked out for US
"interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.
Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?
krp !
2005-10-05 12:42:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Barry Schier
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone (and wagers are being taken, in view of the announcement that the
troop level will change downwards while U.S. plans and hopes in the
region remain unchanged, when and if the United States will ever leave
Iraq and Afghanistan). The U.S. has 77+ military bases around the
world.
Although now favoring elections between Tweedledee and Tweedledum
instead of the Iron Heel, the U.S. government ran "remote controlled"
dictatorships -- from the Shah of Iran, to regimes in Latin America and
Central America (e.g., brutal CIA-installed rulers of post-coup Brazil,
post-coup Guatemala, Nicaragua's Somoza), and Africa (e.g., Congo's
Mobutu).
Of course, there are cases where the United States came and left --
AFTER the deaths of a couple million Vietnamese and 54,000+ U.S. GIs,
the U.S. left Indochina -- because of combination of gunfire directed
at its troops abroad and political fire being directed at its foreign
policy by its citizens at home in protest demonstrations of up to half
million people. The tale of Clark AFB in the Philippines, Culebra and
Vieques in the U.S. semicolony of Puerto Rico and others are stories of
protests forcing the U.S. to leave. But, most importantly, the U.S.
did leave Cuba -- when Fidel Castro (after co-leading a revolution
which ousted a U.S. puppet dictator) did what needed to be done,
providing a model that the peoples of the semicolonial world should
follow (and at the root of U.S. hatred for the Cuban Revolution)
nationalizing holdings of the Yankees --- down to the nails of their
boots. One exception: It has been OVER A CENTURY that the United
States came into -- and NEVER LEFT -- Guatanamo Bay, which is
U.S.-occupied CUBAN territory; however, PL (qua apologist for U.S.
imperialism, albeit only as an honorary member of Washington's Little
Havana cheerleading section since he is a Belgian national) writes with
a straight face that "The US arrives and leaves."
Imperialism's heyday was over a century ago! U.S. out of Iraq,
Afghanistan, S. Korea, etc. NOW!!
Afghanistan has been neutralized as a terrorist base. But why not admit
the Communist role in Afghanistan and its defeat there? No you are not up
to that level of honesty are you? Why not admit that Iraq was a client
state of the USSR under Hussein?
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely circulated
photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't
matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he looked out for US
"interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.
Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?
It is impossible to deal with Baghdad Dan. No matter what you show him
he has some rationalization to ignore it. Danny's SOLE experience is a trip
to Havana ONCE where he stayed in the BAR of the resort hotel. He spoke to
the Cuban Bar Tender and the Cuban MAID and now considered himself an EXPERT
on all things about Cuba. No matter what evidence you have he finds some
excuse for denying it. That's just our Danny. Here he wants to make the
point that the U.S. was Hussein's ally... He has, after all, a PHOTO of
Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein 25 years ago.. To Danny that is all the
proof HE needs of the sinister relationship between Hussein and the U.S. He
can IGNORE that ALL of the Iraqi Air Force were Soviet. That ALL of its
tanks and other munitions were Soviet. That ALL of its missiles were from
Communist bloc nations. He can bury you in rationalizations.

He and those other Canadian Marxists we have become infected with
lately. All of them with NO or almost NO connections to Cuba but quite
willing to claim they know FAR MORE about Cuba than people IN or from Cuba.
Unabashed bullshitters! The SAD part is they believe in their own delusions.
Dan Christensen
2005-10-06 03:34:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
self proclaimed Marxist
Post by Barry Schier
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone (and wagers are being taken, in view of the announcement that the
troop level will change downwards while U.S. plans and hopes in the
region remain unchanged, when and if the United States will ever leave
Iraq and Afghanistan). The U.S. has 77+ military bases around the
world.
Although now favoring elections between Tweedledee and Tweedledum
instead of the Iron Heel, the U.S. government ran "remote controlled"
dictatorships -- from the Shah of Iran, to regimes in Latin America and
Central America (e.g., brutal CIA-installed rulers of post-coup Brazil,
post-coup Guatemala, Nicaragua's Somoza), and Africa (e.g., Congo's
Mobutu).
Of course, there are cases where the United States came and left --
AFTER the deaths of a couple million Vietnamese and 54,000+ U.S. GIs,
the U.S. left Indochina -- because of combination of gunfire directed
at its troops abroad and political fire being directed at its foreign
policy by its citizens at home in protest demonstrations of up to half
million people. The tale of Clark AFB in the Philippines, Culebra and
Vieques in the U.S. semicolony of Puerto Rico and others are stories of
protests forcing the U.S. to leave. But, most importantly, the U.S.
did leave Cuba -- when Fidel Castro (after co-leading a revolution
which ousted a U.S. puppet dictator) did what needed to be done,
providing a model that the peoples of the semicolonial world should
follow (and at the root of U.S. hatred for the Cuban Revolution)
nationalizing holdings of the Yankees --- down to the nails of their
boots. One exception: It has been OVER A CENTURY that the United
States came into -- and NEVER LEFT -- Guatanamo Bay, which is
U.S.-occupied CUBAN territory; however, PL (qua apologist for U.S.
imperialism, albeit only as an honorary member of Washington's Little
Havana cheerleading section since he is a Belgian national) writes with
a straight face that "The US arrives and leaves."
Imperialism's heyday was over a century ago! U.S. out of Iraq,
Afghanistan, S. Korea, etc. NOW!!
Afghanistan has been neutralized as a terrorist base. But why not admit
the Communist role in Afghanistan and its defeat there? No you are not up
to that level of honesty are you? Why not admit that Iraq was a client
state of the USSR under Hussein?
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely circulated
photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't
matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he looked out for US
"interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.
Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?
And Iran had US made jets and helicopters -- F4's, F5's, F14's, Cobras etc.
What's your point? That the US must have backed Iran??? Guess again.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp!
2005-10-06 13:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Daniel
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by Barry Schier
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone (and wagers are being taken, in view of the announcement that the
troop level will change downwards while U.S. plans and hopes in the
region remain unchanged, when and if the United States will ever leave
Iraq and Afghanistan). The U.S. has 77+ military bases around the
world.
Although now favoring elections between Tweedledee and Tweedledum
instead of the Iron Heel, the U.S. government ran "remote controlled"
dictatorships -- from the Shah of Iran, to regimes in Latin America and
Central America (e.g., brutal CIA-installed rulers of post-coup Brazil,
post-coup Guatemala, Nicaragua's Somoza), and Africa (e.g., Congo's
Mobutu).
Of course, there are cases where the United States came and left --
AFTER the deaths of a couple million Vietnamese and 54,000+ U.S. GIs,
the U.S. left Indochina -- because of combination of gunfire directed
at its troops abroad and political fire being directed at its foreign
policy by its citizens at home in protest demonstrations of up to half
million people. The tale of Clark AFB in the Philippines, Culebra and
Vieques in the U.S. semicolony of Puerto Rico and others are stories of
protests forcing the U.S. to leave. But, most importantly, the U.S.
did leave Cuba -- when Fidel Castro (after co-leading a revolution
which ousted a U.S. puppet dictator) did what needed to be done,
providing a model that the peoples of the semicolonial world should
follow (and at the root of U.S. hatred for the Cuban Revolution)
nationalizing holdings of the Yankees --- down to the nails of their
boots. One exception: It has been OVER A CENTURY that the United
States came into -- and NEVER LEFT -- Guatanamo Bay, which is
U.S.-occupied CUBAN territory; however, PL (qua apologist for U.S.
imperialism, albeit only as an honorary member of Washington's Little
Havana cheerleading section since he is a Belgian national) writes with
a straight face that "The US arrives and leaves."
Imperialism's heyday was over a century ago! U.S. out of Iraq,
Afghanistan, S. Korea, etc. NOW!!
Afghanistan has been neutralized as a terrorist base. But why not admit
the Communist role in Afghanistan and its defeat there? No you are not up
to that level of honesty are you? Why not admit that Iraq was a client
state of the USSR under Hussein?
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely circulated
photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't
matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he looked out for US
"interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.
Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?
And Iran had US made jets and helicopters -- F4's, F5's, F14's, Cobras
etc. What's your point? That the US must have backed Iran??? Guess again.
Yes they did. Almost 20 years old sold to the former government! The United
States did NOT sell even one BULLET to EITHER side of that war!

HOWEVER your COMMUNIST nations DID to BOTH SIDES! Aren't ya just busting
with PRIDE on that Danny?
Dan Christensen
2005-10-06 03:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
self proclaimed Marxist
Post by Barry Schier
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone (and wagers are being taken, in view of the announcement that the
troop level will change downwards while U.S. plans and hopes in the
region remain unchanged, when and if the United States will ever leave
Iraq and Afghanistan). The U.S. has 77+ military bases around the
world.
Although now favoring elections between Tweedledee and Tweedledum
instead of the Iron Heel, the U.S. government ran "remote controlled"
dictatorships -- from the Shah of Iran, to regimes in Latin America and
Central America (e.g., brutal CIA-installed rulers of post-coup Brazil,
post-coup Guatemala, Nicaragua's Somoza), and Africa (e.g., Congo's
Mobutu).
Of course, there are cases where the United States came and left --
AFTER the deaths of a couple million Vietnamese and 54,000+ U.S. GIs,
the U.S. left Indochina -- because of combination of gunfire directed
at its troops abroad and political fire being directed at its foreign
policy by its citizens at home in protest demonstrations of up to half
million people. The tale of Clark AFB in the Philippines, Culebra and
Vieques in the U.S. semicolony of Puerto Rico and others are stories of
protests forcing the U.S. to leave. But, most importantly, the U.S.
did leave Cuba -- when Fidel Castro (after co-leading a revolution
which ousted a U.S. puppet dictator) did what needed to be done,
providing a model that the peoples of the semicolonial world should
follow (and at the root of U.S. hatred for the Cuban Revolution)
nationalizing holdings of the Yankees --- down to the nails of their
boots. One exception: It has been OVER A CENTURY that the United
States came into -- and NEVER LEFT -- Guatanamo Bay, which is
U.S.-occupied CUBAN territory; however, PL (qua apologist for U.S.
imperialism, albeit only as an honorary member of Washington's Little
Havana cheerleading section since he is a Belgian national) writes with
a straight face that "The US arrives and leaves."
Imperialism's heyday was over a century ago! U.S. out of Iraq,
Afghanistan, S. Korea, etc. NOW!!
Afghanistan has been neutralized as a terrorist base. But why not admit
the Communist role in Afghanistan and its defeat there? No you are not up
to that level of honesty are you? Why not admit that Iraq was a client
state of the USSR under Hussein?
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely circulated
photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't
matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he looked out for US
"interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.
Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?
And Iran had US made jets and helicopters -- F4's, F5's, F14's, Cobras
etc. -- leftover from the previous regime.

France, Germany, China, the US also supplied Iraq with high-tech weaponry
including chemical and biological weapons.

What's your point?

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp!
2005-10-06 14:01:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Daniel
Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?
And Iran had US made jets and helicopters -- F4's, F5's, F14's, Cobras
etc. -- leftover from the previous regime.
France, Germany, China, the US also supplied Iraq with high-tech weaponry
including chemical and biological weapons.
The United States did NOT supply ANY "high tech weaponry"
PERIOD................... NOR chemical or biological weapons.
The U.S. DID supply Iraq an ANTIDOTE to Anthrax via the CDC............
Dan Christensen
2005-10-06 21:45:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp!
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Daniel
Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?
And Iran had US made jets and helicopters -- F4's, F5's, F14's, Cobras
etc. -- leftover from the previous regime.
France, Germany, China, the US also supplied Iraq with high-tech
weaponry including chemical and biological weapons.
The United States did NOT supply ANY "high tech weaponry"
PERIOD................... NOR chemical or biological weapons.
The U.S. DID supply Iraq an ANTIDOTE to Anthrax via the CDC............
"During the war, [Iraq] purchased billions of dollars worth of advanced
equipment from the Soviets and the French, as well as from the People's
Republic of China, Egypt, Germany, and other sources (including European
facilities for making and/or enhancing chemical weapons). Germany along with
other Western countries (among them United Kingdom, France, Spain
(Explosivos Alaveses), Italy and the United States) provided Iraq with
biological and chemical weapons technology and the precursors to nuclear
capabilities. Much of Iraq's financial backing came from other Arab states,
notably oil-rich Kuwait and Saudi Arabia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#Arming_the_combatants

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
+ krp!
2005-10-07 02:20:07 UTC
Permalink
CRAZY BAGHDAD DAN
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp!
The United States did NOT supply ANY "high tech weaponry"
PERIOD................... NOR chemical or biological weapons.
The U.S. DID supply Iraq an ANTIDOTE to Anthrax via the CDC............
"During the war, [Iraq] purchased billions of dollars worth of advanced
equipment from the Soviets and the French, as well as from the People's
Republic of China, Egypt, Germany, and other sources (including European
facilities for making and/or enhancing chemical weapons). Germany along
with other Western countries (among them United Kingdom, France, Spain
(Explosivos Alaveses), Italy and the United States) provided Iraq with
biological and chemical weapons technology and the precursors to nuclear
capabilities. Much of Iraq's financial backing came from other Arab
states, notably oil-rich Kuwait and Saudi Arabia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#Arming_the_combatants
If you look at LARGER articles on the issue you will see that the U.S.
through the CDC supplied Iraq qith some strains of ANTI-TOXIN for ANTHRAX.
NOT weaponized biological agents as some PROPAGANDA sources falsely
reported. FRANCE attempted to supply Iraq with nuclear weapons technology.
That is what the Israelis blew up. NONE of that came from the United States.
PERIOD! YOU LOSE AGAIN DANNY! The U.S. did NOT supply ANY weapons........
Dan Christensen
2005-10-08 05:19:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by + krp!
CRAZY BAGHDAD DAN
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp!
The United States did NOT supply ANY "high tech weaponry"
PERIOD................... NOR chemical or biological weapons.
The U.S. DID supply Iraq an ANTIDOTE to Anthrax via the CDC............
"During the war, [Iraq] purchased billions of dollars worth of advanced
equipment from the Soviets and the French, as well as from the People's
Republic of China, Egypt, Germany, and other sources (including European
facilities for making and/or enhancing chemical weapons). Germany along
with other Western countries (among them United Kingdom, France, Spain
(Explosivos Alaveses), Italy and the United States) provided Iraq with
biological and chemical weapons technology and the precursors to nuclear
capabilities. Much of Iraq's financial backing came from other Arab
states, notably oil-rich Kuwait and Saudi Arabia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#Arming_the_combatants
If you look at LARGER articles on the issue you will see that the U.S.
through the CDC supplied Iraq qith some strains of ANTI-TOXIN for ANTHRAX.
The above article is from a highly regarded online encyclopedia.
Post by + krp!
NOT weaponized biological agents as some PROPAGANDA sources falsely
reported. FRANCE attempted to supply Iraq with nuclear weapons technology.
Speaking of propaganda, let's see YOUR sources, Kenny.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
+ krp !
2005-10-08 12:29:33 UTC
Permalink
BAGHDAD DAN MINISTER OF MISINFORMATION
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by + krp!
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp!
The United States did NOT supply ANY "high tech weaponry"
PERIOD................... NOR chemical or biological weapons.
The U.S. DID supply Iraq an ANTIDOTE to Anthrax via the CDC............
"During the war, [Iraq] purchased billions of dollars worth of advanced
equipment from the Soviets and the French, as well as from the People's
Republic of China, Egypt, Germany, and other sources (including European
facilities for making and/or enhancing chemical weapons). Germany along
with other Western countries (among them United Kingdom, France, Spain
(Explosivos Alaveses), Italy and the United States) provided Iraq with
biological and chemical weapons technology and the precursors to nuclear
capabilities. Much of Iraq's financial backing came from other Arab
states, notably oil-rich Kuwait and Saudi Arabia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#Arming_the_combatants
If you look at LARGER articles on the issue you will see that the U.S.
through the CDC supplied Iraq qith some strains of ANTI-TOXIN for ANTHRAX.
The above article is from a highly regarded online encyclopedia.
Yes it is, remember *I* first cited it. READ IT moron! You will see that
the CDC supplied anti-toxins for anthrax, the article explains that other
laboratories (Private companies) supplied Iraq with LIVE pathogens. NOT the
CDC. Read it LAL Danny not just PARTS as usual.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by + krp!
NOT weaponized biological agents as some PROPAGANDA sources falsely
reported. FRANCE attempted to supply Iraq with nuclear weapons technology.
Speaking of propaganda, let's see YOUR sources, Kenny.
I provided them and you MISQUOTED ONE.......... YOU LOSE AGAIN COMRADE
CHRISTENSEN!
PL
2005-10-02 09:59:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone
(snip)

and they left.
Your communist friends arrived and stayed.
That sets them apart.
After WW2 the Soviet Union militarily occupied Eastern Europe and imposed
it's system allow no freedom.
They set up the Marshall plan, ....
For the Soviet Union (you example as self confessed communist) it was a war
of conquest. For the US it was a war of liberation.
Since the fall of the Berlin wall and the end of the cold war (a time little
fact Barry seems to want to overlook) the world situation has changed
dramatically.
For the first time we see military intervention with a truly humanitarian
purpose (Kosovo, ex-Yugoslavia, ...).
Afghanistan is an a-typical war of defense. If an enemy attacks you, you hit
at its bases. If that enemy is not a state but an organization under it's
patronage and sheltered by a state that state thereby opens itself up to
retaliation. If certain interest groups decide to wage a war by proxy it is
no more than rational and legitimate to attack those that wage the war by
proxy. The more tenuous one, but incorrect information (due largely to an
refusal to cooperate which led to major fears and suspicions) and continued
abuses led to a war that (once those that use this war for other aims) will
lead to a marked improvement in the life of the ordinary Iraqi which is its
redeeming feature. Even those that attack the US led intervention have to
admit that Saddam was probably the worst situation possible. They resent the
solution chosen, not the aim of the operation. Where they fail is to show
what the real alternative was taking in to account the interest of the Iraqi
people.
As far as Cuba is concerned: I do not support a military intervention. I
don't think it is needed. The Cuban people suffers. There is hunger,
apartheid, abuse of human rights, ... and all that is enough to make anyone
that has the interests of the Cuban people at heart are filled with
despair, but - as the article states - there is an alternative in view:
Castro's death and the new situation created when the old dictator dies.
Raul - heir apparent in the Castro dynasty - does not have any prestige
within the regime nor with the people. His rule will fail or will end in
bloodshed (a major risk). The current elite on the other hand is just
waiting for an opportunity to "settle things". After Castro Cuba will change
for the better (maybe after a tumultuous period). Castro's biggest failure
will be that he didn't know when to end the suffering or that he was too
proud and stubborn to do so.
Pinochet left. Castro will die in the saddle. But once he is dead the horse
will bolt. Castro is ensuring that his place in history will be that of a
reviled dictator that only succeeded in wasting money and leaving a
hopelessly divided country.
The transition to democracy will be hard and Cuba will need good leaders.
The problem is that very few are on the horizon due to the repression
against dissidents and the communist system that promotes the meek and the
corrupt over the critical and motivated.
But democracy will come to Cuba. It is up to God it seems to decide when.

PL
Post by Barry Schier
Post by PL
Post by tony fernandez
First of all it is not up to the U.S. government to determine what kind
of government the Cuban people should have.
Nope.
It is up to the Cubans to do that in a free and fair manner.
That they can't at the moment because of the dictatorship.
In no way that excludes the US to post their assessment and hope.
Post by tony fernandez
Secondly the U.S. does not really believe or care about democracy o
the self determination of other nations.
Wrong.
After WW2 they left western Europe free to decide it's future.
It is the USSR that installed "remote controlled" dictatorships.
History (as so often) proves you wrong.
The communists arrive and stay. The US arrives and leaves.
PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-02 13:28:38 UTC
Permalink
Like I said before the U.S. does not give a hoot about democracy. Their
attack against Iraq was just a ploy to get control of the worlds second
biggest oil reserve. The U.S. overthrows more governments then the
former soviet union ever did. It has invaded more countries, started
more wars and continues to occupy more contries then the soviets ever
did. Still PL wants to pretend that their oppression of Latin America
is somehow OK!
PL
2005-10-02 13:56:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
Like I said before the U.S. does not give a hoot about democracy.
False.
They see it as a pre-condition for long trem stability and peace.

Stop living in the past Tony.
The cold war is over.

PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-02 16:43:44 UTC
Permalink
You PL are the one that brought the Soviet Union into the picture, You
are the one that is living in the past or ome kind of fantasy world.
Democracy is just a way for the U.S. and the international capitalist
to control and exploit the developing nations but when it doesn't serve
their interest it doesn't really matter. Haiti, venezuela, algeria,
pakistan, egypt and many others are good examples.
PL
2005-10-02 17:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
You PL are the one that brought the Soviet Union into the picture,
yep as you are stuck in cold war thinlking.
Post by tony fernandez
You
are the one that is living in the past or ome kind of fantasy world.
Nope.
I live in today's reality, not some twited version of history.
Post by tony fernandez
Democracy is just a way for the U.S. and the international capitalist
to control and exploit the developing nations(snip)
Nope.
It is a way to empower people in their own countries.
But thanks for confirming you love dictatorships.

PL
krp !
2005-10-03 14:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
Like I said before the U.S. does not give a hoot about democracy. Their
attack against Iraq was just a ploy to get control of the worlds second
biggest oil reserve. The U.S. overthrows more governments then the
former soviet union ever did. It has invaded more countries, started
more wars and continues to occupy more contries then the soviets ever
did. Still PL wants to pretend that their oppression of Latin America
is somehow OK!
Well if the U.S. wanted the oil from Iraq (production now back to 100%) it
failed badly because the oil is back going to where it was before. FRANCE,
GERMANY, JAPAN etc...........
PM
2005-10-01 13:14:23 UTC
Permalink
"tony fernandez" <***@webtv.net> a écrit dans le message de news:6796-433E6F19-***@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net...
First of all it is not up to the U.S. government to determine what kind
of government the Cuban people should have.
-----------------
Yes, right, BUT itr is up to the USA and the entire world nations to reject, to despise ,to see help the
cuban people under a rabid tyrann and his repressive dogs..

To help also to liberate them from slavery ,hunger and abuses of all OF THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Secondly the U.S. does not really believe or care about democracy o
the self determination of other nations. This is evident in the fact
that the U.S. was the only government to embrace the cooup in Venezuela.
In Haiti the U.S. is attempting to create another puppet government that
oppresses the majority party.
-------------------------------------------------------
Precisely, what was the stauts and situation prior to Chavez regime in Venezuela ?
Who tried in 1992 to get power thru a Coup in that same nation ?
Things like these you are so fond of forgetting or even hide from those who do not KNOW !
NOW did you ever see the USA govenment interfere in Venezuela prior to this pro totalitarian Chavez ?

NO ! SO TO AVOID A ANOTHER CUBA OR GULAG IN THE AMERICAS, NOT ONLY THE PEOPLE OF THE USA, BUT THE REST OF THE CONTINENT SHOULD STAND BY HE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE NOT THE CHAVEZ GOVERNMENT.
----------------------------------------

In Algeria the U.S. never said a word when the military stopped the
democratic lections because the Islamic salvation party was going to win
by a landslide. In fact there is and never has been a trade embargo
emposed on the Algerian military government.
---------------------------------------------

HOW slime you are..why don't you tell in here why the fanatics fro the islamic party FIS

were masacrating-- by the hundreds in one single shot some nights ----, WOMEN,CHILDREN, MEN AND OLD PEOPLE all over ALgeria ????

Now here you claim that the USA did not intervene there...where the Algerian Army was in full control
and after those bloody fanatics were eliminated , the situation has developed to a stable one under the present government of Bouteflika. BTW wasn't that government a friendly one to KaSStro...the one under Boumedieme the dictator of Argelia who took power soon after he eliminated and imprisoned Ben Bella the
leader of the Independence movement in Argelia ?

So don't let KaSStro hear that you proposed the USA intervention in Argelia...or critisize the non intervention...je, je, je

-----------------------------------------------------

The U.S. has historically supported the most repressive anti
democratic regimes in the world, the Shah of Iran, Marcos in the
phillipines, Somoza in Nicaraguaand Pinniche in Chil where they
actively conspired to overthrow their 120+ year old democracy.
In short all this BS about democracy is propqaganda for internal
domestic purposes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Los genocidios en toda la Historia en este URL o enlace : http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

Je, Je, the Soviets who killed 30 millions ... the mamaoist who killed other 40 millions....

the POL POT who was a marxist or mamaoist and killed 2 millions cambodians...

are by any comparison millions of times worst...but then these regimes do not count for you...

when it comes to demonize the USA a country where you should not live since it is such a anti democratic
society and so many inmoral exemples that you try to put on their back.

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm




http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.html
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
FOR FREEDOM & JUSTICE GROUP
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ForFreedomandJustice/
"Live-Free-or-Die"
"...one nation UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST"
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm


http://www.memesolis.com/

http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
PM
2005-10-01 13:19:26 UTC
Permalink
ver aqui la Demokracia que este HP tony...
quisiera ver llegar un dia a su misma puerta en los USA...
je, je,je....!!!


http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm
http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm
PM
2005-10-01 14:38:14 UTC
Permalink
...LO MAS COMPLETO EN LA MATERIA DE GENOCIDIOS...

Ze'ev Jabotinsky
The Israeli Classical Liberal Website

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Esta Página Updated: May 2001 visitors since November 30 2000 FastCounter
by bCentral

ENCICLOPEDIA del GENOCIDIO
O
MONUMENTO al HOLOCAUSTO UNIVERSAL
Noah Nissani
Traducido por el autor con la colaboración de Myriam Nissensohn (B. Aires)


INTRODUCCIÓN
La "Enciclopedia del Genocidio" (Instituto del Holocausto y Genocidio,
Jerusalem, Israel, Israel W. Charny Ed., ABC-CLIO Inc. 1999), viene a llenar
un sentido vacío en la historiografía del Siglo XX. Su importancia
documental, a pesar que no hay en ella nada totalmente nuevo, nada que todo
aquel que quiso saber no supo a su debido tiempo, la hace merecedora de un
lugar en toda biblioteca pública o privada. Su función es recordar lo que se
prefiere olvidar, inducir a pensar, y quizas prevenir la repetición de
aquellos errores que convirtieron al Siglo XX en el más sangriento de la
historia.
Ese siglo que nació pleno de esperanzas, y fué llamado el siglo de las
luces, de l progreso, de la razón y del humanismo, fué el siglo en que se
torturó, se destruyó física y moralmente y se asesinó a centenares de
millones de indefensos seres humanos, de todas las razas y religiones, por
obra y acción de sus propios gobernantes.

Esta enciclopedia constituye, hasta el dia de hoy, el único monumento
recordatorio de este monstru oso "Holocausto Universal" realizado en nombre
de la justicia , la razón y el progr eso, sin contar las decenas de millones
de combatientes que murieron en sus interminables guerras.

Contemplando retrospectivamente el siglo que acaba de terminar, a traves de
los numeros fríos e imparciales de esta enciclopedia, es imposible evitar la
sensación, de que las exageradas esperanzas que acompañaron su nacimiento
tuvieron apreciable influencia en su trágico fin. Esperanzas que expresaban
el sentimiento de superioridad y soberbia de la moderna generación con
relación a las generaciones anteriores. Soberbia que impidió hacer uso de la
experiencia histórica de las generaciones pasadas. Sentimiento de
superioridad que llevó a despreciar la sabiduría milenaria de la Biblia, de
los filósofos griegos, y de todos aquellos que precedieron a Marx y a
Engels. Ignorando así la experiencia de generaciones contenida en sus
páginas. Soberbia que llevó a negar toda existencia superior al ser humano,
a su razón e inteligencia. Ello explica la ubicación de todos los régimenes
marxistas, aquellos que pretendieron ser capaces de crear una sociedad nueva
y justa, en los primeros puestos en la maldita lista de los genocidios.

La enciclopdia se refiere solamente al número de muertos, sin tomar en
cuenta la multitud de seres humanos que quedaron física y moralmente
destruídos. No hace referencia tampoco al mundo de miseria, prostitución y
crimen en que se hundieron los pueblos sojuzgados por el "Socialismo
Cientifico". La influencia de sus errores y fracasos continúa reclamando sus
víctimas aún después de su colapso. Con sus mujeres, niñas y niños
trabajando en los prostíbulos, y sus hombres trabajando en condiciones
vergonzosas, muchas veces ilegalmente, en el mundo occidental. Las decenas y
centenas de millones de muertos que llenan las páginas de la enciclopedia,
ocultan que detras de cada una de las muertes hay un drama humano. Y que la
muerte misma no es sino el fin de un largo proceso de destrucción de un ser
humano, de su dignidad y de su familia, y la liberación deseada de un
sufrimiento moral y físico imposible de soportar. A pesar de ello nos
ocuparemos aqui, con cierta resistencia interior, de estos números y su
significado cuantitativo.


EXOCIDIO y ENDOCIDIO
Bajo la expresión "Democidio", en los artículos "El Nuevo Concepto de
Democidio" y "El Poder Mata, el Poder Absoluto Mata Absolutamente" de R.J.
Rummel (1), se distinguen dos categorías: "democidio doméstico", o sea
asesinato de hijos del mismo pueblo, y "genocidio", cuando se trata de
miembros de otros pueblos. Estos términos no gozan de general aceptación, y
la enciclopedia se hace eco del debate sobre ellos. Yo me permitiré proponer
y usar aquí las denominaciones "endocidio" y "exocidio", las que definiría
como asesinato dentro del grupo (nación, tribu, jauría, manada o rebaño) o
fuera del mismo, respectivamente. Mi impresión es que estos conceptos
corresponden en gran medida, por una parte, a la clasificación hecha en los
mencionados artículos entre "democidio doméstico" y "genocidio", y al mismo
tiempo contribuyen a la mejor comprensión de lo incomprensible.
Nos guste o no, el género humano se desarrolló en su proceso evolutivo, al
igual que otras numerosas especies que viven en grupos o manadas, como un
animal gregario. Al igual que ellas, el hombre desarrolló normas, o sea
moral y leyes, de convivencia dentro del grupo. Este hecho es el racional
oculto tras la universal creencia, común a la Biblia, a los filósofos de la
Grecia Clásica, y a la mayoría de los fundadores del liberalismo moderno,
que las leyes de la sociedad, al igual que las leyes del mundo inerte, son
de origen divino. De aqui que, en la filosofía política liberal, la función
del legislador se limita a la investigación y redacción de las leyes de la
sociedad y no a su creacion.(2)

Estas leyes y normas de conducta estan limitadas, por su misma naturaleza, a
los miembros del grupo, y no rigen con respecto al resto de la especie, Esta
diferencia entre moral interna del grupo y moral externa al mismo, está
expresada claramente en la Biblia, en la aparente contradicción entre el
mandamiento "no matarás" y la orden de exterminar a los habitantes de
Canaan. Contradicción que resalta en el marco de la aspiración a la unidad
de la humanidad toda, que encontramos a todo lo largo de la Biblia, y que de
ella pasó al liberalismo clásico como uno de sus fundamentos.

Los límites del area de la obligación moral no coinciden forzosamente con
los los limites genéticos del pueblo, por lo que la denominación "genocide"
induce a error respecto a la naturaleza del fenómeno. Para una gran parte de
los seres humanos, sus propios hijos en el período intra-uterino de la vida
no son exactamente "seres humanos", y la interrupción de su vida no
constituye asesinato. Para otros, incluso la interrupción de la vida de sus
hijos durante un período subsiguiente a su nacimiento es aceptada. Los
abortos llegaron en los estados comunistas a proporciones sin precedentes, y
en parte de ellos el asesinato del recién nacido se hace en los hospitales
públicos con el apoyo del gobierno. El segundo hijo y los siguientes son
privados de seguro médico. En ciertos pueblos la vida de los ancianos es
considerada superflua y abandonados a morir. Nadie se sienta desligado de lo
que ocurre en otros pueblos. Todos los hombres son esencialmente iguales, y
el refran: "No preguntes por quien doblan las campanas - doblan por ti",
puede ser ampliado: "No preguntes quien es el asesino - lo eres tú".

De aquí puede deducirse que los límites del grupo, como area de la
obligación moral, incluye sólo en forma absoluta a los miembros de la misma
generación. Definiremos por lo tanto como "endocidio" al asesinato masivo de
los hijos del mismo pueblo y de la misma generación, o sea de aquellos a los
que no se les puede negar, conciente o inconcientemente, su condición de
seres humanos. Esto coincide con el hecho de que el monto total del
"democidio doméstico", tomado en cuenta en los citados articulos de R.J.
Rummel, no incluye los abortos, el asesinato de recien nacidos, ni las
muertes causadas por privación de asistencia médica al hijo segundo y
subsiguientes.


LOS NUMEROS Y SU SIGNIFICADO
En la tabla 3 del citado artículo de Rummel, estan clasificados los
regímenes mas letales del Siglo XX de acuerdo a su contribución cuantitativa
al asesinato de 170 millones de indefensos seres humanos (excluyendo los
soldados muertos en las guerras.) En esta evaluación, considerada por el
editor en jefe de la enciclopedia, I.W. Charny, conservadora en comparación
con otras que llegan hasta un total de 360 millones, ocupa el primer puesto
la Unión Soviética con 62 millones, que constituyeron un tercio de su
poblacion (!!) (O.c., pg.27, tabla 4). Le sigue la China Comunista con 40
millones (que incluyen el período de guerrilla de Mao.) (3), y Alemania Nazi
en el tercer puesto con 21 millones. Esta larga lista de los mayores
democidas, en la que se distinguen los regímenes comunistas, como Cambodia,
Vietnam, Polonia, Yugoeslavia y Corea del Norte, en su orden de aparición,
es cerrada por el Reino Unido con 816 mil victimas, e Indonesia con 729 mil.
Bastan estos números secos para provocar serias preguntas:

1) ¿Cual es la justificación moral de los juicios de Nuremberg en los que el
representante de Stalin, que encabeza la lista de democidas, está sentado
como juez, y también los otros jueces tienen un honroso lugar en ella, como
Inglaterr a que aparece en la lista, y los EE.UU. que aparecería de
prolongarse esta un poco mas? (4)

2) ¿Los tribunales internacionales destinados a juzgar crímenes contra la
humanidad son, o hay esperanza de que lo sean en un futuro próximo, capaces
de actuar contra grandes y chicos, vencedores y vencidos por igual? ¿O no
son más que una farsa que atenta contra los principios básicos de la
justicia? ¿ Existen en la humanidad aquellos justos, dignos de juzgar a los
demás?

3) ¿La alianza de Inglaterra y EE.UU. con Stalin en la segunda guerra
mundial, que trajo como consecuencia la subyugación al Marxismo de todo el
este de Europa y una gran parte de Asia, no los convirtió en cómplices del
democidio brutal que se realizó en estos pueblos? ¿ No se convirtió la
guerra por la libertad, en la guerra por el sometimiento de media humanidad
y el asesinato multitudinario?

4) ¿La discriminación contra los que apoyaron en el pasado a Hitler con
relación a la indulgencia con los que apoyaron a Stalin, no es el resultado
de esa no sacra alianza? ¿No será causada por la dificultad de aceptar
públicamente cual fue el resultado del sacrificio de millones de jóvenes en
la guerra?

De la clasificación de Rummel del democidio en exocidio (o genocidio en la
nomenclatura de Rummel) y endocidio (doméstico alli), aparece el exocidio
como fenómeno universal, participando en él casi todas las naciones y
regímenes, incl uso los mas democráticos y liberales. Por el contrario, los
endocidas del monstruoso Siglo XX pertenecen, casi exclusivamente, a dos
categorias:

a) Regímenes Marxistas, que en su casi totalidad lo realizaron en escala
astronómica, llegando hasta el asesinato de un tercio de su propio pueblo,
como en el caso de la Union Sovietica y de Cambodia.

b) Regímenes que lucharon contra guerrillas Marxistas, como los de Chiang
Kai-shek y de los Señores de la Guerra (Warlords) en China. En esta
categoría debe tambien incluirse la tan mentada junta militar del General
Videla, de los años 70 en Argentina. Aunque por el número de sus víctimas,
entre 10 y 30 mil, en comparación con los millones y decenas de millones de
los anteriores, está numericamente muy lejos de merecer ser incluída en la
mencionad a tabla. (Ib., The Dirty War of ..., Edy Kaufman & al. pg. 655)


CARACTERISTICAS del EXOCIDIO
A pesar de que no todas aparecen juntas en todos los casos, es posible
señalar las siguientes características peculiares del exocidio:
1) Universalidad (Ib., Democracy and Genocide, I.W. Charny, pg. 157):

Inglaterra, la veterana entre las democracias liberales de la era moderna,
encuentra su lugar en la mencionada tabla con un record de 800 mil victimas
pertenecientes a distintos pueblos. Todas las naciones americanas sin
excepción realizaron exterminio y/o esclavizaron indios y africanos hasta
mediados del Siglo XIX. EE.UU. y la mayor parte de las naciones de Europa y
Asia participaron en el exocidio del siglo XX. Diez millones del total de 62
millones de víctimas del Marxismo en la Union Sovietica estan clasificadas
en la citada tabla como exocidio. La China Marxista figura con 375 mil y la
Alemania Nazi con 16 millones.

2) Negación de la condición humna de las víctimas (Ib., Deshumanization ...,
I.W. Charny, pg. 155).

Deshumanización total de las víctimas, o considerarlas pertenecientes a una
raza inferior, sub-humana, como se hizo con los indios y africanos en
América, c on los judios, gitanos y otros en Alemania, con los nativos de
Australia, Filipinas, Africa, etc.. Asi como con seres humanos de todas las
razas en el periodo intra-uterino de sus vidas, y en ciertos casos tambien
durante cierto periodo de la vida extra-uterina. (5)

3) Se hace para el bien de las víctimas (En opinión de los victimarios)

En opinión de sus usufructuarios, la esclavitud salvaba a los africanos de
perpretar o ser víctimas del canibalismo. Los abortos salvan a los fetos de
nacer como hijos indeseados. Aristóteles afirma la existencia de seres
humanos para los que la esclavitud es apropiada. (Puede que tenga razón,
porque ser libre requiere una dosis de valor que no todos tienen. La Biblia
nos cuenta de aquellos que preferian la olla de carne en Egipto, a los
azares y peligros de la libertad en el desierto. Asi como tambien de
esclavos que se resisten a ser libres al terminar el período de su
esclavitud.}

4) Es un castigo que las víctimas se merecen.

A veces se trata del conocido fenómeno psicológico de proyección de las
intenciones del agresor sobre la victima. Otras veces se hace uso de
debilidades o hechos repudiables en la conducta de las victimas, de los
cuales ningún pueblo en el mundo esta libre. La Biblia nos proporciona un
ejemplo tipico de este caso: " Porque ellos [los pueblos de Canaan
destinados a ser exterminados] queman sus hijos e hijas a sus dioses."
(Deut., 12:31)

Las características 2 a 4 del exocidio permiten a hombres y mujeres comunes
tomar parte en él sin que ello afecte su autoestima como personas morales y
de buen corazón. (Ib., "Ordinary People" as Perpetrators of Genocide,
I.W.Ch. pg. 451)

5) Beneficia a los perpetradores.

En casi todos los casos de exocidio es posible señalar el beneficio que este
trae a los que lo realizan. Beneficio que es la real causa que se oculta
detras de todos los otros pretextos. Sea este la avidez por apropiarse de
las tierras de los nativos y de los tesoros naturales encerrados en ellas,
la explotación del trabajo barato de los esclavos, o librarse de la
responsabilidad, o de los problemas económicos y/o sociales, involucrados en
un embarazo no deseado. O como en el caso del Holocausto, descargar los
sentimientos de frustración provocados por la derrota de Alemania en la
guerra.

Las caracteristicas enumeradas insinuan el origen genetico-evolucionario del
exocidio, fortaleciendo la suposición de que el género humano, al igual que
otros animales gregarios, desarrolló un sistema de normas de convivencia del
grupo, que no rigen con respecto a los demas miembros de la especie. Siendo
asi, no nos queda mas que la esperanza de que con el desarrollo de la "aldea
universal", fruto del desarrollo de la técnica y de la política liberal de
fronteras abiertas a los hombres, las mercaderías y la información,
llegaremos en un futuro, no demasiado lejano, a constituir un único y gran
grupo humano universal. Entre tanto, tribunales internacionales no sólo no
ayudaran, sino que representan una seria amenaza a los principios
fundamentales de justicia, que aun siendo por el momento solo válidos dentro
de los limites del grupo nacional, son demasiado importantes para ponerlos
en peligro.


ENDOCIDIO
A diferencia del "exocidio" que es un fenómeno universal, el "endocidio" en
el Siglo XX aparece, en la "Enciclopedia del Genocidio", casi exclusivamente
en dos categorías: regimenes marxistas, y regimenes en lucha contra
guerrillas marxistas. Las causas y caracteristicas del endocidio son
aparentemente distintas en cada una de estas categorias, y a los efectos de
su discución las denominaremos "Endocidio Ideológico" y "Guerra contra
Guerrillas", respectivamente.

ENDOCIDIO IDEOLÓGICO
La determinacion de las caracteristicas del endocidio ideológico esta
dificultada por haber sido este, en el Siglo XX, un fenómeno casi exclusivo
de una sola ideologia: el marxismo. Recurriremos, por lo tanto, a
expresiones de endocidio ideologico en siglos anteriores. A pesar de las
diferencias en las dimensiones númericas y temporales, centenares de
millones de victimas en decenas de años en el uno y decenas de miles de
victimas a lo largo de varios siglos en el otro, es posible señalar un
cierto paralelismo entre el endocidio marxista y los crimenes de la
Inquisición.
Sus caracteristicas comunes aparecen siendo:

1) Seguridad absoluta en la justicia de sus respectivas causas.

Caracteriza a ambos su fe absoluta, desprovista de toda duda, en el objetivo
y en los medios apropiados a su logro. Uno basado en su fe ciega en el
"racionalismo cientifico", desconectado de la realidad y de la experiencia
histórica de la humanidad, e inconciente de las limitaciones del pensamiento
racional. El otro, prisionero en las redes de la fe mística.

La Biblia, fruto de la experiencia humana de milenios, enseña que ni
siquiera Dios puede estar seguro de la justicia de sus actos: "Y se
arrepintió Dios de haber creado al hombre" (Genesis, 6:6). Aristóteles
advierte que la seguridad excesiva en la justicia de nuestras ideas conduce
al extremismo (6). Seguridad absoluta en la causa justifica los medios, y no
hay limite a la barbarie a la que ella puede llevar.

2) Sus acciones son actos de amor y por el bien de las víctimas.

La Inquisición, en su función de guardiana de la fe cristiana, religión del
amor, actuo preocupada por los sufrimientos que esperaban despues de la
muerte a los cristianos que se apartaban de la verdadera fe. De esa fe por
la que Dios sacrificó a su hijo para comunicarsela a los hombres. Por el
bien de las victimas eran los sufrimientos temporales en este mundo, que los
salvarian de los sufrimientos eternos en el otro.

Los marxistas actuaron por amor y preocupación por la clase obrera, víctima
de la explotación despiadada, segun ellos, de la burguesía. Su objetivo era
salvarlos para siempre del sufrimiento, la muerte, la prostitución, la
miseria, el hambre y las guerras producidos por los capitalistas en su
avidez por acumular dinero. Era preferible la muerte hoy de aquellos obreros
que en su ignorancia se oponian a los que buscaban su bien, que dejarlos por
generaciones, a ellos y a sus descendientes, en su desgraciada situación
actual.

3) Arrogancia de progreso y modernismo.

Expresado en la convicción marxista de la superioridad de la generación que
conoció a Marx y al "socialismo cientifico", sobre las generaciones
precedentes primitivas e irracionales, sometidas en su ignorancia a las
religiones y otras supersticiones. La Inquisición, por su parte, en su fe en
la superioridad de aquellos que reconocieron a Jesus y a la nueva revelación
que él trajo a la humanidad.


GUERRA CONTRA GUERRILLAS
Los marxistas desarrollaron y perfeccionaron la guerra de guerrillas,
sirviendose de ella para apoderarse, con ayuda de la Union Sovietica, de
China, Cambodia, Vietnam, Mongolia, Cuba, Angola, y de extensas zonas de
otros paises como Colombia. El resultado fue el asesinato de centenas de
millones, y la esclavitud y condiciones infrahumanas de vida de los pueblos
sometidos. Las guerrillas marxistas probaron su suerte, felizmente sin
éxito, tambien en otras naciones. El Che Guevara encontro la muerte en la
selva que se extiende sobre la zona limitrofe de Paraguay, Bolivia y
Argentina. Otra tentativa de apoderarse de la Argentina fue frustrada
gracias a la "Guerra Sucia" llevada a cabo por la Junta Militar del General
Videla.(7)< P> En la guerra contra guerrillas, el ejercito enemigo no es un
cuerpo diferenciado del resto de los ciudadanos, cuyas posiciones pueden ser
atacadas cuidando no herir o matar indefensos civiles. Por el contrario, el
pacifico ciudadano de la mañana se transforma en el guerrillero de la noche,
para volver a desaparecer entre la poblacion civil al terminar la accion de
guerra. Esta caracteristica dificulta al ejercito, por fuerte que sea,
luchar exitosamente contra guerrillas. Incluso el ejercito de los EE.UU fue
derrotado por la guerrilla del Viet Cong. Por otra parte, ella impide la
distincion, necesaria para la definicion de democidio, entre la muerte de
soldados en accion de guerra y el asesinato de indefensos ciudadanos.
NOTAS:

(1) Por mayor informacion en el tema visite el sitio del Prof. R.J. Rummel
en la Universidad de Hawaii: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills
Retorno

(2) Vea al respecto en este mismo sitio: "Introduccion al Liberalismo
Clasico", capitulo V, seccion 1.
Retorno

(3) Mientras que en lo que respecta a los datos concernientes a la Union
Sovietica, Alemania Nazi, y demas naciones Europeas, hay relativo acuerdo,
respecto a las victimas de Mao hay grandes diferencias entre las
apreciaciones de distintos historiadores. Hay quienes elevan su numero a mas
de 100 millones, y el total de indefensos civiles asesinados en el siglo XX
por los gobiernos, o con su aquiescencia, a mas de 250, y hasta 360 millones
(o.c..pg. 28). A estos numeros hay que agregar los que murieron a
consecuencia de los fracasos de gobiernos, que indiferentes a la tragedia
que causaban, continuaron su politica. Por ejemplo, los 27 millones segun
Rummel (o.c.., China .. R.J. Rummel, pg. 128), o hasta 60-70 millones segun
otros, que murieron en el"gran hambre" en China a consecuencia de la
colectivizacion de la agricultura.
Retorno

(4) En la cuenta de crimenes contra la humanidad de los EE.UU. de America se
encuentran: El bombardeo atomico de Hiroshima y Nagasaki en Agosto 1945,
despues de concluida la guerra en Europa y del comienzo de los tanteos del
Japon en procura de su rendicion. En el murieron alrededor de 200 mil
victimas y un numero mayor murio posteriormente a consecuencia de sus
heridas (O.c., Hiroshima, D. Krieger, pg. 290. Nagasaki, D. Krieger, pg.
429). La matanza de filipinos a comienzos del siglo (O.c., pg. 30), y si se
cuenta el siglo de 1850 a 1950, el exterminio del resto de los indios, la
esclavitud de millones de africanos, y las leyes de discriminacion racial
que rigieron hasta despues de la segunda guerra mundial.
Retorno

(5) Ni los abortos, ni siquiera la matanza de recien nacidos que se realiza
en particular en estados comunistas como China, pero tambien en no
comunistas como India, y privacion de atencion medica del segundo hijo en
adelante, no aparecen en la enciclopedia. A pesar de que aparecen en ellos
la mayoria de las caracteristicas del exocide: universalismo,
deshumanizacion de las victimas, lo hecho es sostenido ser en bien de las
victimas (mejor no nacer que ser hijo no deseado), y beneficia a los
victimarios. Y a pesar de que numericamente los abortos superan a la suma de
todas las otras formas de exocidio y endocidio juntas.
Retorno

(6) "Aquellos que creen que toda la justicia se encuentra en su partido
llevan las cosas al extremismo" (Aritoteles, Politica, V, IX).
Retorno

(7) El reconocimiento público de la existencia de guerrilla marxista en los
años 70 en la Argentina, comienza a infiltrarse en la prensa mundial. En el
mencionado articulo de Kaufman leemos: "Las victimas fueron a veces
guerrilleros activos pero en la mayoria de los casos opositores pacificos
..." (O.c., pg. 656).

En Haaretz, 17.2.00:

"Buenos Aires. Meses despues de su ascenso al poder, el presidente de
Argentina, Fernando de la Rua, ordenó efectuar cambios en los servicios de
inteligencia y el ejército para alejar los elementos sospechosos de
colaboración en la "guerra sucia" de los años 70 y 80. Entre 15 a 30 mil
personas - opositores, guerrilleros, y otros elementos subversivos contra el
gobierno militar - desaparecieron o fueron muertos entre los años 76-83"
.[Haaretz es el mas serio de los diarios israelies en hebreo, con tendencia
izquierdista moderada.]
Retorno


Retorno al Comienzo de la Pagina
Derecha vs. Izquierda - Soberbia vs. Humildad
Diferencias en la Infraestructura Psico-Filosófica

Herzl, Jabotinsky, Weizman, Ben Gurion y el Holocausto

Teodoro Herzl fundador del Sionismo político, y Vladimiro Jabotinsky
fundador del partido Sionista Revisionista, antecesor del actual partido
Likud, comprendieron ya a fines del siglo XIX, que el Pueblo Judío afrontaba
un nuevo y virulento antisemitismo. Antisemitismo que ponia en peligro su
existencia en el Galuth, y urgía su traslado en masa a su propio estado.
Weizman y Ben Gurion, por el contrario, ajenos al peligro, estaban
posesionados por el sueño de crear una sociedad "justa", lo que requería una
inmigración limitada y seleccionada.



Since 20 March 2001
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FOR FREEDOM & JUSTICE GROUP
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"Live-Free-or-Die"
"...one nation UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST"
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http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm


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http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html




----- Original Message -----
From: roberto
To: Vicente Barba ; Teresita Aguirre I ; Reynaldo Galindo ; Rafael Fandiño
of. ; Rafael Fandiño casa ; Pedro Corzo radio ; Pedro Corzo casa ; Orlando
"Malanga" ; Orlando "Cuco" Moro ; María Cuca Cañizares ; Manuel Barba ; Luis
Jiménez ; Luis Glez. Infante ; Lourdes Pagani ; Lionel Rodríguez ; Laida
Carro ; Juan Falcón ; José Rodríguez ; José A. Jiménez ; Jorge Hdez. Fonseca
; Joel Rodríguez ; Henio del Castillo ; Héctor Caraballo ; Germán Miret ;
Francisco Hasegawa Tanaka ; Felipe Jiménez ; Emilio Martínez Venegas ; Dr.
Santiago Cárdenas ; Carlos Almoina ; Belkis Cuza Male ; Aniceto Cuesta ;
Angel D'Fana ; Andrés Candelario ; Alberto Muller ; carlosbosch
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 3:55 PM
Subject: Fw: Individual O socialista?



----- Original Message -----
From: Raul Fernandez
To: Luis Jiménez ; Alberto Muller ; Ileana curra ; Andrés Candelario ;
Angel D'Fana ; Aniceto Cuesta ; Belkis Cuza Male ; Carlos Almoina ; Dr.
Santiago Cárdenas ; Emilio Martínez Venegas ; Felipe Jiménez ; Francisco
Hasegawa Tanaka ; Germán Miret ; Héctor Caraballo ; Henio del Castillo ;
Joel Rodríguez ; Jorge Hdez. Fonseca ; José A. Jiménez ; José Rodríguez ;
Juan Falcón ; Laida Carro ; Lionel Rodríguez ; Lourdes Pagani ; Luis Glez.
Infante ; Manuel Barba ; María "Cuca" Cañizares ; Orlando "Malanga" ; Pedro
Corzo casa ; Pedro Corzo radio ; Rafael Fandiño casa ; Rafael Fandiño of. ;
Teresita Aguirre I ; Vicente Barba ; roberto
Cc: Sociedad Civil Cuba ; Partido Republicano de Cuba
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 4:27 AM
Subject: Individual O socialista?


Artículo publicado en el Universal de nuestro compañero de prisión
Juanito Müller, que no necesita aclaraciones.

Raúl.



Juan Antonio Muller // ¿Individual o socialista?



EN ENERO DE 1959, el Che Guevara declaraba a la prensa que la única
propiedad individual en la cual creía, era sobre el cepillo de diente. No
hubo otro dirigente revolucionario, Fidel Castro incluido, que descubriese
tempranamente sus convicciones. En las revoluciones las afirmaciones se
dosifican para no alertar al enemigo y hacerle creer que la violencia no es
contra él sino contra el otro. Una estrategia similar se aplica en
Venezuela, la confiscación y la violencia son selectivas. Por ahora se
ejerce contra las unidades productivas de gran extensión pero no crean los
pequeños y medianos agricultores que van a correr mejor suerte. Su hora
también les llegará, pues cuando la revolución se sienta mucho más fuerte y
segura, no quedará títere con cabeza. El campo y la agricultura son siempre
los primeros objetivos por ser más vulnerables: la pobreza rural es mayor,
mientras que la población es menor y mal preparada. Se le engaña fácilmente
con las cartas agrarias que no brindan titularidad ni posibilidad de
traspaso. El enemigo está más indefenso apartado de los populosos centros de
poder.

Pero cuando se termine de establecer la propiedad socialista en el Texto
Constitucional, la ofensiva revolucionaria pasará a las ciudades. Los
buhoneros olvídense de sus tarantines; autobuseros, motorizados y taxistas
de sus vehículos; los cooperativistas de sus talleres de confección; los
habitantes de los barrios de sus enseres; los profesionales de sus segundas
viviendas; bodegueros, mecánicos, peluqueras, costureras y electricistas
pasarán a la nómina de las corporaciones estatales creadas al efecto.

La propiedad individual tan cara al venezolano de todos los niveles
sociales, será un mal del pasado y se presentará en los "nuevos" textos de
historia como la causante de la desigualdad y la pobreza. Así ha sido en
todos los países que, con anterioridad a nosotros, tuvieron la desgracia de
sufrir calamidades socialistas.

Causa escozor presenciar cómo las invasiones y confiscaciones, que están
a la orden del día en todas las regiones del país, no se enfrentan con la
debida decisión y firmeza. Los venezolanos pareciéramos resignados, o lo que
es peor, a creer ingenuamente que Venezuela no podrá ser socialista. En la
medida que mantengamos la guardia baja seremos noqueados, sin pelear, en el
primer round.
PM
2005-10-01 15:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Si queremos saber qué tienen en común en estos tiempos que corren sujetos
como Fidel Castro, Hugo Chávez, Chafi Handal, Evo Morales, Tiro Fijo, Los
Hermanos Ortega, José L. Rodríguez Zapatero, Lula (Brasil), Kichnner
(Argentina), el Comandante Marcos, etc., pues todos son marxistas
mesiánicos. Por tanto para encontrar la verdad y las razones de su
comportamiento hay que mirar atrás hacia el 10 de octubre de 1917 cuando los
bolcheviques tomaron el poder en Rusia. Ahí está el Genesis de todo lo que
ha ocurrido a lo largo de un siglo.

Estoy casi seguro que si Fulgencio Batista hubiera conocido lo que ocurrió
en Rusia a partir del 10 de octubre de 1917.. estoy seguro -lo repito- que
no hubiera soltado a Fidel Castro de la Cárcel, a no ser que Batista
estuviera también en la conspiración. Y esto también se le pudiera aplicar a
Rafael Calderas en Venezuela.

Manuel Prieres
--
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Dan Christensen
2005-10-03 04:21:15 UTC
Permalink
"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:Yjt%e.9190$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
[snip]
Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.
[snip]

You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America??? Please excuse
the Cuban people if they politely decline.

Cuba already leads the region in health care and education. Capitalism has
nothing to offer the average Cuban -- or the average Latin American for that
matter.
Post by PL
American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs
assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been drawn up to
upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.
What a joke! Already the best in Latin America, so the US is going to
"upgrade" them???? Why hasn't the US bothered to "upgrade" the health and
education systems in the rest of Latin America?

The cheque is the mail, right, Mr. Lobbyist? Ha, ha, ha!
Post by PL
The 400-plus page report discusses ways to modernize Cuba's aviation,
railroad and maritime infrastructure. It envisions U.S. aid in holding
free and fair elections, fighting corruption and establishing independent
trade unions.
And what expertise if any does the US have in these areas?
Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has advocated
establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is outraged by the
administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in the internal affairs
of another state," Smith said.
Well said, Mr. Smith.
Post by PL
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the
transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.
[snip]

And what is your reply to him, Mr. Lobbyist?

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp !
2005-10-03 14:20:59 UTC
Permalink
BAGHDAD DANNY
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.
[snip]
You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America??? Please
excuse the Cuban people if they politely decline.
Cuba already leads the region in health care and education. Capitalism has
nothing to offer the average Cuban -- or the average Latin American for
that matter.
Good think you don't even come close to speaking for the Cuban people. Seems
like Havana is having FITS trying to stamp out those pesky little capitalist
inclinations among the people who keep coming up with their own private
enterprises to get by on.................
Dan Christensen
2005-10-03 04:57:23 UTC
Permalink
"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:Yjt%e.9190$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
[snip]
Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.
[snip]

You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America??? Please excuse
the Cuban people if they politely decline.

Cuba already leads the region in health care and education. Capitalism has
nothing to offer the average Cuban -- or the average Latin American for that
matter.
Post by PL
American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs
assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been drawn up to
upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.
What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate -- the single most
reliable indicator of over all public health -- Cuba surpassed the US years
ago! And the US is going to "upgrade" Cuba's health care system????

Also, why hasn't the US bothered to "upgrade" the health and education
systems in the rest of Latin America? (The cheque is in the mail, right, Mr.
Lobbyist?) Instead, it is Cuba that upgrading health and education systems
there, sending thousands of doctors and teachers throughout the region --
CUBA!
Post by PL
The 400-plus page report discusses ways to modernize Cuba's aviation,
railroad and maritime infrastructure. It envisions U.S. aid in holding
free and fair elections, fighting corruption and establishing independent
trade unions.
And what expertise, if any, does the US have in these areas? Very little it
would seem these days.
Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has advocated
establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is outraged by the
administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in the internal affairs
of another state," Smith said.
Well said, Mr. Smith.
Post by PL
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the
transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.
[snip]

And what is your reply to him, Mr. Lobbyist?

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2005-10-03 09:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.
[snip]
You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America
which is a lot more democratic than cuba indeed.
Post by Dan Christensen
Please excuse the Cuban people if they politely decline.
(snip)

You are very badly placed to speak for anyone in Cuba pompous arse.
Who do you think you are?
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs
assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been drawn up to
upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.
What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate(snip)
but then international experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island
have reported the Cuba's reporting of health statistics is "politically
influenced", no?
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
The 400-plus page report discusses ways to modernize Cuba's aviation,
railroad and maritime infrastructure. It envisions U.S. aid in holding
free and fair elections, fighting corruption and establishing independent
trade unions.
And what expertise, if any, does the US have in these areas? Very little
it would seem these days.
but Cuba has none, no?
Since Castro all elections are pre-controlled by the regime that decides who
can be a candidate and who not.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has
advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is
outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in the
internal affairs of another state," Smith said.
Well said, Mr. Smith.
as weel said as whe,n he stated that he does not support and "inmmediate and
unconditional" end to the trade sanctions as you always falsely claimed
about him?
Mr. Smith does want to keep up pressure for democratic change, no?
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the
transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.
[snip]
And what is your reply
The US does not need to versee anything, just assist comrade Dan.
That is what they aim to do.
Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist?
Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you. You can
not deny that you are a self declared Stalinist cyber activists who lives in
a nice 250,000 dollar suburban house in Canada (realtor site with images can
be given at your request) while playing the communist.
Stuck as you are without arguments all you have left are lies, personal
attacks and moronic innuendo

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP
address of my posts in SCC at that time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl1746703614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the ones
below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en


YOUR own words:


'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.


Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823


YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.


Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:


"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"


http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html


Link to the "report": (the one you don't give)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB


They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report. Aren't they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
this
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):


"in 1.


"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."


In 8.1


"· to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


· to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."


and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
lying website:


" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"


that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report


You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.


What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:


"Amnesty International calls on the United States government


· to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
· to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
· to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."


Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".


See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB


PL
Dan Christensen
2005-10-03 14:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.
[snip]
You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America
which is a lot more democratic than cuba indeed.
Post by Dan Christensen
Please excuse the Cuban people if they politely decline.
(snip)
You are very badly placed to speak for anyone in Cuba pompous arse.
Who do you think you are?
The Cuban people are quite capabable of speaking for themselves, and have
done so on many occassions. In one vote after another, by secret ballot,
they have overwhelmingly (about 95%) voiced their support for their
government and the Revolution. I guess, that's why you feel it is necessary
to inflict these genocidal sanctions on them -- to FORCE your hateful
ideology on them. That'll teach 'em to mess with the Empire, right, Mr.
Lobbyist?
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs
assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been drawn up to
upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.
What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate(snip)
but then international experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island
have reported the Cuba's reporting of health statistics is "politically
influenced", no?
Only according your one pathetic little, 8-year old posting at some obscure
message board. Though you have been trying for years -- some times with
quite comical results! -- you have been unable to find even one independent
expert who will back your outrageous claim that Cuba health stats are
somehow unreliable. Even your fellow ultra-conservatives at the
Washington-based World Bank have been forced to concede what "great job"
Cuba is doing in health care and education. Top officials of the Bank also
concede that these remarkable gains would NOT be sustainable under a
capitalist regime. And they, along with their sister organization, the
notorious IMF, have to power to ensure that this would indeed be the case.
There are many precedents for this. See Featured Article, "What do Cubans
stand to lose and who stands to gain?" at my website.

What Mr. Lobbyist snipped:

"Also, why hasn't the US bothered to "upgrade" the health and education
systems in the rest of Latin America? (The cheque is in the mail, right, Mr.
Lobbyist?) Instead, it is Cuba that upgrading health and education systems
there, sending thousands of doctors and teachers throughout the region."

No comment, Mr. Lobbyist? With public health care and education a shambles
in the rest of Latin America, why should we believe the US would now be
committed to "upgrading" them in Cuba when they are already the best in
region? It's all just a smokescreen for your evil intentions, isn't it?
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
The 400-plus page report discusses ways to modernize Cuba's aviation,
railroad and maritime infrastructure. It envisions U.S. aid in holding
free and fair elections, fighting corruption and establishing
independent trade unions.
And what expertise, if any, does the US have in these areas? Very little
it would seem these days.
but Cuba has none, no?
Since Castro all elections are pre-controlled by the regime that decides
who can be a candidate and who not.
Actually, candidates are nominated directly by the people themselves in open
public meetings, or by their democratically elected representatives who
themselves were nominated in this way. Too much democracy for you, Mr.
Lobbyist? We know that you believe such important decisions should be left
to the US Embassy and the local oligarchs, but that's your problem. In Cuba,
the majority rules. (See "Democracy in Cuba" at my website.)
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has
advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is
outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in
the internal affairs of another state," Smith said.
Well said, Mr. Smith.
as weel said as whe,n he stated that he does not support and "inmmediate
and unconditional" end to the trade sanctions as you always falsely
claimed about him?
Mr. Smith does want to keep up pressure for democratic change, no?
I don't support everything he says, but he is strongly opposed to the
embargo. See his website at:

http://ciponline.org/cuba/index.htm
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the
transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.
[snip]
And what is your reply
The US does not need to versee anything, just assist comrade Dan.
[snip]

Very evasive. Please answer his question.

Maybe the following will help. From a posting of yours last year:


Cuban Dissidents Reject Bush Pro-Democracy Plan

By Isabel Garcia-Zarza

HAVANA (Reuters) - Leading Cuban dissidents on Monday rejected President
Bush (news - web sites)'s plans to speed up a democratic transition in
communist-run Cuba and said U.S. meddling would not help bring political
change.

The White House announced steps on Thursday to spend $36 million on
promoting democratic change in Cuba and blocking a communist succession when
President Fidel Castro (news - web sites) dies.

The measures include new sanctions to squeeze the island's battered economy
and the broadcast of anti-Castro television signals from a military C-130
transport off Cuba.

"This is a total interference that does not benefit the building of
democracy in Cuba," said moderate dissident Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo, who
criticized Bush's policy in a statement he handed in at the U.S. diplomatic
mission in Havana.

"The United States has no right to set the pace of a transition in Cuba. It
is humiliating," said Manuel Cuesta Morua, another moderate who accompanied
Gutierrez Menoyo.

Cuba's best-known dissident, Oswaldo Paya, winner of the European
Parliament's Andrei Sakharov human rights prize, said it was up to Cubans,
not the United States or a European government, to design a post-Castro
transition for the Caribbean island.

Cuban dissidents also rejected Bush's plan to appoint a "transition
coordinator" in the next few weeks to implement the White House's
pro-democracy strategy, which aims to undermine the continuation of
communism in Cuba under Castro's younger brother and designated successor,
Raul Castro.

"The proposals are totally counterproductive," said veteran Cuban human
rights activist Elizardo Sanchez, who warned that opponents receiving U.S.
money would be immediately exposed to arrest.

Castro, 77, in power since a 1959 revolution, last year ordered the arrest
of 75 dissidents, who received prison terms of up to 28 years. Dissidents
are regularly branded traitors on Washington's payroll by the ruling
Communist Party.

The Cuban government has criticized the Bush measures as "cruel" steps to
toughen a U.S. economic blockade dating from 1962.

Cuba watchers questioned the timing of the measures and said they appeared
to be tailored to curry favor with hard-line Cuban-American voters in
Florida, an important state in November's presidential election.

CONCERN ON LIMITING VISITS

The White House measure most widely criticized by Cubans was limiting annual
visits to the island by Cuban- Americans living in the United States to one
trip every three years.

The Bush administration had toyed with the idea of cutting family
remittances by half, to deny the cash-strapped Castro government vital cash
inflows.

Facing criticism from Cuban-Americans, the White House opted instead to
reduce the frequency of visits, restrict remittances to immediate family
members and step up police action against "mules" taking illegal sums of
cash to Cuba.

Cubans living in the United States are allowed to remit up to $1,200 a year
to relatives in Cuba. Remittances are estimated to total from $300 million
to $1.2 billion a year.

"The people who drew up these measures obviously do not have family in
Cuba," said Harold Bloom, arriving in Havana from Miami for a visit.
Post by PL
Mr. Lobbyist?
Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.
[snip]

No lies or misquotes, Mr. Lobbyist, just your OWN words. You would like us
to forget all about your little indiscretion here -- your boasting here
about your lobbying exploits -- wouldn't you? Did you really think we would
be impressed???

In addition to your own words here, we have your prodigious production stats
here and at other forums. For details, see the thread "Top Official: US
Wants Cuba 'Liberation'" where our Mr. Lobbyist here obligingly runs through
almost his entire repertoire of desperate lies, distortions and evasions,
including those here, each debunked yours truly at:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_frm/thread/1ae3dea90e537555/c9ae6074e5dc9370?q=group:soc.culture.cuba+insubject:top+insubject:official#c9ae6074e5dc9370

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2005-10-03 15:44:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.
[snip]
You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America
which is a lot more democratic than cuba indeed.
Post by Dan Christensen
Please excuse the Cuban people if they politely decline.
(snip)
You are very badly placed to speak for anyone in Cuba pompous arse.
Who do you think you are?
The Cuban people are quite capabable of speaking for themselves,(snip)
then don't presume to speak for them and stop supporting those that denie
them freedom of speech.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs
assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been drawn up to
upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.
What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate(snip)
but then international experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island
have reported the Cuba's reporting of health statistics is "politically
influenced", no?
Only according your one pathetic little, 8-year old posting at some obscure
message board(snip)
and nothing has changed, has.
By the way that "pathetic" and "obscure" message board is
www.promedmail.org, one of the prime infectious disease networs.
Even Dr. Kouri, the top Cuban in the field thinks it necessay to contribute.
It seems he understands the value of the forum.
But as usual comrade Dan attacks the source if he can't refute the content.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
The 400-plus page report discusses ways to modernize Cuba's aviation,
railroad and maritime infrastructure. It envisions U.S. aid in holding
free and fair elections, fighting corruption and establishing
independent trade unions.
And what expertise, if any, does the US have in these areas? Very little
it would seem these days.
but Cuba has none, no?
Since Castro all elections are pre-controlled by the regime that decides
who can be a candidate and who not.
Actually, candidates are nominated directly by the people themselves in
open public meetings,(snip)
run by the CDR who prime task is to report all "regime unfriendly" activity
and that can ensure that people lose their house, their job, their
education, ...
At the meeting a pre-vetted selection is available only.
Not all candidates can freely stand.
As such this is no more than a "rubber stamp" under pressure of a
pre-selected group.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has
advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is
outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in
the internal affairs of another state," Smith said.
Well said, Mr. Smith.
as weel said as when he stated that he does not support and "inmmediate
and unconditional" end to the trade sanctions as you always falsely
claimed about him?
Mr. Smith does want to keep up pressure for democratic change, no?
I don't support everything he says, but he is strongly opposed to the
(snip)

You are avoiding the issue comrade Dan.
Disn't you claim he called fro an immediate and unconditional end to the
embargo while he actually said the opposite?
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the
transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.
[snip]
And what is your reply
The US does not need to versee anything, just assist comrade Dan.
[snip]
Very evasive. (snip)
Nope.
A fact.
No lies or misquotes, Mr. Lobbyist (snip)
Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you. You can
not deny that you are a self declared Stalinist cyber activists who lives in
a nice 250,000 dollar suburban house in Canada (realtor site with images can
be given at your request) while playing the communist.
Stuck as you are without arguments all you have left are lies, personal
attacks and moronic innuendo

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP
address of my posts in SCC at that time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl1746703614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the ones
below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en


YOUR own words:


'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.


Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823


YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.


Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:


"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"


http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html


Link to the "report": (the one you don't give)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB


They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report. Aren't they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
this
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):


"in 1.


"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."


In 8.1


"· to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


· to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."


and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
lying website:


" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"


that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report


You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.


What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:


"Amnesty International calls on the United States government


· to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
· to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
· to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."


Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".


See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB


PL
Dan Christensen
2005-10-03 16:28:59 UTC
Permalink
"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:elc0f.82594$***@blueberry.telenet-ops.be...
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to both
with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate(snip)
but then international experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island
have reported the Cuba's reporting of health statistics is "politically
influenced", no?
Only according your one pathetic little, 8-year old posting at some obscure
message board(snip)
and nothing has changed, has.
By the way that "pathetic" and "obscure" message board is
www.promedmail.org, one of the prime infectious disease networs.
Even Dr. Kouri, the top Cuban in the field thinks it necessay to contribute.
It seems he understands the value of the forum.
But as usual comrade Dan attacks the source if he can't refute the content.
[snip]

As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus of
expert opinion is against you, Mr. Lobbyist (previous posting). Again, all
you have is one pathetic, 8-year old posting at an obscure message board. It
has been 5 or 6 years now, and you still have not come up with even a single
independent expert that will back your outrageous claims. As usual.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has
advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is
outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in
the internal affairs of another state," Smith said.
Well said, Mr. Smith.
as weel said as when he stated that he does not support and "inmmediate
and unconditional" end to the trade sanctions as you always falsely
claimed about him?
Mr. Smith does want to keep up pressure for democratic change, no?
I don't support everything he says, but he is strongly opposed to the
(snip)
You are avoiding the issue comrade Dan.
Disn't you claim he called fro an immediate and unconditional end to the
embargo while he actually said the opposite?
[snip]

Mr. Lobbyist desperately trying to change the subject!

YOU are avoiding the issue, Mr. Lobbyist. Please answer Smith's question
from your OWN posting here:

"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the transition.
Who gives us that right?"

And you still refuse to answer the obvious question:

Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are already
the best in the region, and those in the rest of the region are in such
shambles? Obviously these "upgrades" of yours are just a smokescreen for
your evil intentions.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

PS: If, as I suspect, you are simply going to keep repeating yourself here
and refuse to answer the above questions, do not expect a reply from me.
PL
2005-10-03 22:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to both
with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate(snip)
but then international experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island
have reported the Cuba's reporting of health statistics is "politically
influenced", no?
Only according your one pathetic little, 8-year old posting at some obscure
message board(snip)
and nothing has changed, has.
By the way that "pathetic" and "obscure" message board is
www.promedmail.org, one of the prime infectious disease networs.
Even Dr. Kouri, the top Cuban in the field thinks it necessay to contribute.
It seems he understands the value of the forum.
But as usual comrade Dan attacks the source if he can't refute the content.
[snip]
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)
Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has
advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is
outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in
the internal affairs of another state," Smith said.
Well said, Mr. Smith.
as weel said as when he stated that he does not support and "inmmediate
and unconditional" end to the trade sanctions as you always falsely
claimed about him?
Mr. Smith does want to keep up pressure for democratic change, no?
I don't support everything he says, but he is strongly opposed to the
(snip)
You are avoiding the issue comrade Dan.
Disn't you claim he called fro an immediate and unconditional end to the
embargo while he actually said the opposite?
[snip]
Mr. Lobbyist desperately trying to change the subject!
(snip)

Nope.
You are.
Well all can see below why you dare not answer.
Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist (snip)
Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you. You can
not deny that you are a self declared Stalinist cyber activists who lives in
a nice 250,000 dollar suburban house in Canada (realtor site with images can
be given at your request) while playing the communist.
Stuck as you are without arguments all you have left are lies, personal
attacks and moronic innuendo

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP
address of my posts in SCC at that time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl1746703614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the ones
below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en


YOUR own words:


'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.


Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823


YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.


Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:


"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"


http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html


Link to the "report": (the one you don't give)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB


They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report. Aren't they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
this
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):


"in 1.


"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."


In 8.1


"· to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


· to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."


and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
lying website:


" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"


that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report


You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.


What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:


"Amnesty International calls on the United States government


· to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
· to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
· to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."


Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".


See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB


PL
Dan Christensen
2005-10-04 02:57:16 UTC
Permalink
"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:0_h0f.143351$***@biebel.telenet-ops.be...
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to both
with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)
Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.
[snip]

So then it should be relatively easy to find several independent experts to
support your outrageous claims here, Mr. Lobbyist. It has been 5 or 6 years
and we are still waiting for even one to pan out.
Post by PL
Well all can see below why you dare not answer.
[snip]

Poor, poor desperate Mr. Lobbyist! He has painted himself into yet another
corner. He is unwilling or unable to answer the question posed in his own
posting:

"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the transition.
Who gives us that right?"

Even Cuban dissidents themselves are opposed to this meddling by the US
regime (previous posting).

Mr. Lobbyist is also unwilling or unable to answer the obvious questions:

Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems? Have they in the past
demonstrated any significant commitment to public health and education in
the region? Not that you would notice. In these areas, the region as a whole
lags far behind Cuba today despite decades long, genocidal US trade
sanctions. Sometimes it seems the only thing more deadly than be an enemy of
the Empire, is to be its friend!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist (snip)
Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.
As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you. You can
not deny that you are a self declared Stalinist cyber activists who lives in
a nice 250,000 dollar suburban house in Canada (realtor site with images can
be given at your request) while playing the communist.
Stuck as you are without arguments all you have left are lies, personal
attacks and moronic innuendo
Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP
address of my posts in SCC at that time prove).
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl1746703614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.
Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the ones
YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en
'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823
YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.
Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
Link to the "report": (the one you don't give)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB
They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report. Aren't they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
this
"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."
In 8.1
"· to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.
· to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."
and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report
You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.
"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
· to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
· to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
· to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."
Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB
PL
PL
2005-10-04 14:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to both
with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)
Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.
[snip]
So then it should be relatively easy to find several independent (snip)
Yep.
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit
of the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University of Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent
three months in Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers
on Cuban health care. Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was
only able to get hold of the official statistical data and find them
not especially trustworthy.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Well all can see below why you dare not answer.
[snip]
Poor, poor desperate
Yep.
That is what you are.
Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist! (snip)
Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you. You can
not deny that you are a self declared Stalinist cyber activists who lives in
a nice 250,000 dollar suburban house in Canada (realtor site with images can
be given at your request) while playing the communist.
Stuck as you are without arguments all you have left are lies, personal
attacks and moronic innuendo

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP
address of my posts in SCC at that time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl1746703614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the ones
below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en


YOUR own words:


'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.


Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823


YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.


Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:


"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"


http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html


Link to the "report": (the one you don't give)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB


They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report. Aren't they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
this
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):


"in 1.


"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."


In 8.1


"· to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


· to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."


and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
lying website:


" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"


that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report


You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.


What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:


"Amnesty International calls on the United States government


· to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
· to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
· to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."


Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".


See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB


PL
Dan Christensen
2005-10-04 18:23:51 UTC
Permalink
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to
both with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)
Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.
[snip]
So then it should be relatively easy to find several independent (snip)
Yep.
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit
of the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University of Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent
three months in Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers
on Cuban health care. Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was
only able to get hold of the official statistical data and find them
not especially trustworthy.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
[snip]

This one again??? Mr. Lobbyist NEVER seems to learn from his mistakes.
I like that about him!

I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote, something which, for
obvious reasons, our Mr. Lobbyist refuses to do. (Once bitten, twice
shy, as they say.) It turns out Dr. T was referring not to health
indicators -- which he said were "quite rigorous" -- but to economic
stats. According to his online CV, he is a health economist.

Once again, Mr. Lobbyist was exposed for the truly desperate liar that
he is by his OWN source. This was by no means the first time either.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2005-10-04 19:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to
both with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)
Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.
[snip]
So then it should be relatively easy to find several independent (snip)
Yep.
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit
of the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University of Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent
three months in Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers
on Cuban health care. Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was
only able to get hold of the official statistical data and find them
not especially trustworthy.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
[snip]
This one again(snip)
The other one you could never refute.
Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist! (snip)
Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you. You can
not deny that you are a self declared Stalinist cyber activists who lives in
a nice 250,000 dollar suburban house in Canada (realtor site with images can
be given at your request) while playing the communist.
Stuck as you are without arguments all you have left are lies, personal
attacks and moronic innuendo

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP
address of my posts in SCC at that time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl1746703614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the ones
below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en


YOUR own words:


'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.


Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823


YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.


Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:


"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"


http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html


Link to the "report": (the one you don't give)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB


They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report. Aren't they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
this
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):


"in 1.


"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."


In 8.1


"· to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


· to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."


and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
lying website:


" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"


that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report


You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.


What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:


"Amnesty International calls on the United States government


· to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
· to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
· to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."


Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".


See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB


PL
Dan Christensen
2005-10-04 20:39:33 UTC
Permalink
"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:oqA0f.86832$***@blueberry.telenet-ops.be...
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to both
with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)
Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.
[snip]
So then it should be relatively easy to find several independent (snip)
Yep.
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit
of the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University of Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent
three months in Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers
on Cuban health care. Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was
only able to get hold of the official statistical data and find them
not especially trustworthy.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
[snip]
This one again(snip)
The other one you could never refute.
[snip]

The one that made you look like a pathetic loser, Mr. Lobbyist (previous
posting).

Anyway, as you usually do when you lose an argument, you have been reduced
to mindlessly repeating yourself here. If you have nothing better than this,
do not expect a reply from me.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2005-10-04 20:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to both
with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)
Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.
[snip]
So then it should be relatively easy to find several independent (snip)
Yep.
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit
of the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University of Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent
three months in Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers
on Cuban health care. Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was
only able to get hold of the official statistical data and find them
not especially trustworthy.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
[snip]
This one again(snip)
The other one you could never refute.
[snip]
The one that made you look like a pathetic loser (snip)
Nope.
the one that again exposed you as a pathetic liar comrade Dan.
your "private lies" can never refute pulic statements.
You should know that by now.
You were exposed a couple of times already.
Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist! (snip)
Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you. You can
not deny that you are a self declared Stalinist cyber activists who lives in
a nice 250,000 dollar suburban house in Canada (realtor site with images can
be given at your request) while playing the communist.
Stuck as you are without arguments all you have left are lies, personal
attacks and moronic innuendo

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP
address of my posts in SCC at that time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl1746703614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the ones
below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en


YOUR own words:


'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.


Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823


YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.


Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:


"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"


http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html


Link to the "report": (the one you don't give)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB


They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report. Aren't they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
this
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):


"in 1.


"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."


In 8.1


"· to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


· to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."


and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
lying website:


" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"


that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report


You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.


What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:


"Amnesty International calls on the United States government


· to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
· to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
· to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."


Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".


See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB


PL
krp !
2005-10-04 00:57:39 UTC
Permalink
BAGHDAD DAN
Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are already
the best in the region,
BULLSHIT!!!! See www.the realcuba.com
Dan Christensen
2005-10-04 03:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp !
BAGHDAD DAN
Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,
BULLSHIT!!!! See www.the realcuba.com
They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some hokey
little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken anywhere.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp !
2005-10-04 12:52:17 UTC
Permalink
OLE BULLSHITTIN DANNY the UGLY CANADIAN PROPAGANDIST
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,
BULLSHIT!!!! See www.therealcuba.com
They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some
hokey little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken
anywhere.
But - Danny were NOT. Note that those photos came from an EXTREMELY
RELIABLE Scandinavian newspaper and NOT the CIA.... NOT the "Miami Mafia"
and NOT the State Department but independent JOURNALISTS... And if THAT
doesn't blister your ass there is another side with completely different yet
similar photographic PROOF that your IDEAL SYSTEM
sucks........................ Again from NON-AMERICAN
journalists............ Forget the TESTIMONY of actual CUBAN doctors and
people Danny who verify what those photos show. What have YOU GOT? The
JANITOR at the world bank who has NEVER been to Cuba, and GRANMA!

PATHETIC DANNY!
Dan Christensen
2005-10-04 18:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp !
OLE BULLSHITTIN DANNY the UGLY CANADIAN PROPAGANDIST
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,
BULLSHIT!!!! See www.therealcuba.com
They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some
hokey little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken
anywhere.
But - Danny were NOT. Note that those photos came from an EXTREMELY
RELIABLE Scandinavian newspaper
[snip]

Even Scandinavian newspapers can be duped. And like Belgium, I am sure
there is no shortage of right-wing propandists and apologists in these
countries, too.

In any case, this anti-Cuban website of yours, like your fellow
embargo-Nazis here, cannot cite even one independent expert to support
their outrageous. Even a hate-addled fanatic like you, Kenny, must
wonder about that.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp !
2005-10-05 12:33:13 UTC
Permalink
OLE BULLSHITTIN DANNY the UGLY CANADIAN PROPAGANDIST
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,
BULLSHIT!!!! See www.therealcuba.com
They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some
hokey little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken
anywhere.
But - Danny were NOT. Note that those photos came from an EXTREMELY
RELIABLE Scandinavian newspaper
[snip and RUN from the truth]
Even Scandinavian newspapers can be duped. And like Belgium, I am sure
there is no shortage of right-wing propandists and apologists in these
countries, too.
Danny you are just CRAZY as hell. You mean they were hallucinating?
They only THOUGHT they were in Cuba because the "MAMI MAFIA" told them. They
were REALLY in a hospital for Cubans in Miami! That kind of bullshit may
sell with mindless Canadians Danny, but the rest of the world is rolling on
the floor holding its sides LAUGHING at your INSANE arguments!
In any case, this anti-Cuban website of yours, like your fellow
embargo-Nazis here, cannot cite even one independent expert to support
their outrageous. Even a hate-addled fanatic like you, Kenny, must
wonder about that.
Yes- Danny they DO......... However every time they DO cite experts YOU
merely claim they are nOT "independent" like you TRY with the Swedish
Journalists and the like. What an easy way to TRY to deny photographic
evidence. Now terll me Danny - WHAT possible morive could Swedish
Journalists have for LYING? Danny ever think that the rest of the world
might be right and it is YOU who is INSANE here?
Dan Christensen
2005-10-05 20:26:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp !
OLE BULLSHITTIN DANNY the UGLY CANADIAN PROPAGANDIST
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,
BULLSHIT!!!! See www.therealcuba.com
They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some
hokey little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken
anywhere.
But - Danny were NOT. Note that those photos came from an EXTREMELY
RELIABLE Scandinavian newspaper
[snip and RUN from the truth]
Even Scandinavian newspapers can be duped. And like Belgium, I am sure
there is no shortage of right-wing propandists and apologists in these
countries, too.
Danny you are just CRAZY as hell. You mean they were hallucinating?
They only THOUGHT they were in Cuba because the "MAMI MAFIA" told them.
They were REALLY in a hospital for Cubans in Miami! That kind of bullshit
may sell with mindless Canadians Danny, but the rest of the world is
rolling on the floor holding its sides LAUGHING at your INSANE arguments!
I really doubt it, Kenny. Your country's government is now internationally
famous for its lies and distortions. (WMD's ring a bell?)
Post by krp !
In any case, this anti-Cuban website of yours, like your fellow
embargo-Nazis here, cannot cite even one independent expert to support
their outrageous. Even a hate-addled fanatic like you, Kenny, must
wonder about that.
Yes- Danny they DO......... However every time they DO cite experts YOU
merely claim they are nOT "independent" like you TRY with the Swedish
Journalists and the like.
[snip]

We know nothing about them. Journalists, even honest ones, are not
independent medical experts. And they can be duped by unscrupulous,
politically motivated con-artists. Of course, some journalists have
knowingly disseminated lies and disinformation for political purposes. The
CIA has often been known to plant stories with its international network of
like-minded journalists -- just one part of their bag of dirty tricks to
advance US imperialist interests.

Again, the consensus of independent expert opinion -- medical experts who
have gone to see for themselves -- is that Cuba is doing a great job in
health care. Not one such expert seems willing to support your outrageous
claims. You just can't seem to get around that fact, can you, Kenny? Neither
can your fellow embargo-Nazis here, or your absurd little anti-Cuban
website.

Anyway, if you are just going to mindlessly repeating yourself like this and
have nothing new to add, do not expect a reply from me. I think we have
about exhausted the topic.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp!
2005-10-06 13:56:16 UTC
Permalink
BAGHDAD DAN
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
Post by krp !
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,
BULLSHIT!!!! See www.therealcuba.com
They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some
hokey little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken
anywhere.
But - Danny were NOT. Note that those photos came from an EXTREMELY
RELIABLE Scandinavian newspaper
[snip and RUN from the truth]
Even Scandinavian newspapers can be duped. And like Belgium, I am sure
there is no shortage of right-wing propandists and apologists in these
countries, too.
Danny you are just CRAZY as hell. You mean they were hallucinating?
They only THOUGHT they were in Cuba because the "MAMI MAFIA" told them.
They were REALLY in a hospital for Cubans in Miami! That kind of
bullshit may sell with mindless Canadians Danny, but the rest of the
world is rolling on the floor holding its sides LAUGHING at your INSANE
arguments!
I really doubt it, Kenny. Your country's government is now internationally
famous for its lies and distortions. (WMD's ring a bell?)
Diversion from issue at hand. And another distortion that is improper
for this forum. IF you REALLY want to debate on that let's do that elsewhere
in its own thread.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp !
In any case, this anti-Cuban website of yours, like your fellow
embargo-Nazis here, cannot cite even one independent expert to support
their outrageous. Even a hate-addled fanatic like you, Kenny, must
wonder about that.
Yes- Danny they DO......... However every time they DO cite experts
YOU merely claim they are nOT "independent" like you TRY with the Swedish
Journalists and the like.
[snip]
We know nothing about them. Journalists, even honest ones, are not
independent medical experts. And they can be duped by unscrupulous,
politically motivated con-artists. Of course, some journalists have
knowingly disseminated lies and disinformation for political purposes. The
CIA has often been known to plant stories with its international network
of like-minded journalists -- just one part of their bag of dirty tricks
to advance US imperialist interests.
Danny you absue the shit out of RATIONALIUZATIONS and excuse making. The
PHOTOS taken IN Cuban medical establishments (Hospitals and clinics) speak
for themselves. All of your jaw jacking BULLSHIT and attempts to take
attention OFF the proof that your claims are IDIOTIC does NOT sell to most
of us.
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, the consensus of independent expert opinion -- medical experts who
have gone to see for themselves -- is that Cuba is doing a great job in
health care. Not one such expert seems willing to support your outrageous
claims. You just can't seem to get around that fact, can you, Kenny?
Neither can your fellow embargo-Nazis here, or your absurd little
anti-Cuban website.
People taken on a cook's tour of what the Havana government will allow
them to see. Much like Hussein took a CNN crew to Kuwait to view *A*
hospital to disprove the atrocities that were kater PROVEN to have been
going on.
Post by Dan Christensen
Anyway, if you are just going to mindlessly repeating yourself like this
and have nothing new to add, do not expect a reply from me. I think we
have about exhausted the topic.
As you MINDLESSLY try to use the SAME threadbare rationalizations to try
to convince us to disbelieve what we can see with our own eyes. Than you get
all pissy when we won't!

Danny - YOUR bullshit makes people SOUND many times more hostile to the
Cuban government than we are. Just because your lunatic bullshit evokes that
kind of response.
PM
2005-10-06 12:13:30 UTC
Permalink
Dan...pisssst ....sorry pal..

go to ......Japan...........or Germany.........or South Korea

and ask if the USA did any wrong or caused any difficulties, miseries, and
colonized them as it was the case of the 20 nations conquered by force and
dirty tricks in Eastern Europe...by the soviets from Russia...

ASK from Aserbabdjian to Finland passing by Ukrainia and Latvia,Estonia and
Lithuania...Checoslovakia,Poland East Germany ,Hungary ,Rumania,etc. what
they were and what they became after they were under control of the
"socialists republics of the soviets "...( Russia)

Tell ...what is Japan or Germany --- the half that was not under the
soviets--or So. Korea today
in terms of Economics and what are their standings in the list of the 198
nations...??????

...................so much for the kasstro fake socialism or marxism...!!!
--
--
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.html
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ForFreedomandJustice/
"Live-Free-or-Die" "...one nation UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST"
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm
Dan Christensen
2005-10-05 03:28:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp !
OLE BULLSHITTIN DANNY the UGLY CANADIAN PROPAGANDIST
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,
BULLSHIT!!!! See www.therealcuba.com
They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some
hokey little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken
anywhere.
But - Danny were NOT. Note that those photos came from an EXTREMELY
RELIABLE Scandinavian newspaper
[snip]

Even Scandinavian newspapers can be duped. And like Belgium, I am sure
there is no shortage of right-wing propandists and apologists in these
countries, too.

In any case, this anti-Cuban website of yours, like your fellow
embargo-Nazis here, cannot cite even one independent expert to support their
outrageous claims. Even a hate-addled fanatic like you, Kenny, must wonder
about that.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PM
2005-10-04 12:57:04 UTC
Permalink
of course they are capable of speaking for themselves, and have
done so on many occassions....by THE BIAS OF THE BALSAS OR RAFTS...ESCAPING
FROM THE GULAG...
voting -- by escaping-- against the sadist ruler of the gulag Cuba...

Every day or almost there are cubans trying to escape that gulag...many
never see their hopes materialized ..they get lost or sunk in the
seas...others are rescued and sent back to the hellish gulag they were
trying to escape from...
--
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.html
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ForFreedomandJustice/
"Live-Free-or-Die" "...one nation UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST"
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.
[snip]
You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America
which is a lot more democratic than cuba indeed.
Post by Dan Christensen
Please excuse the Cuban people if they politely decline.
(snip)
You are very badly placed to speak for anyone in Cuba pompous arse.
Who do you think you are?
The Cuban people are quite capabable of speaking for themselves, and have
done so on many occassions. In one vote after another, by secret ballot,
they have overwhelmingly (about 95%) voiced their support for their
government and the Revolution. I guess, that's why you feel it is necessary
to inflict these genocidal sanctions on them -- to FORCE your hateful
ideology on them. That'll teach 'em to mess with the Empire, right, Mr.
Lobbyist?
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs
assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been drawn up to
upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.
What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate(snip)
but then international experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island
have reported the Cuba's reporting of health statistics is "politically
influenced", no?
Only according your one pathetic little, 8-year old posting at some obscure
message board. Though you have been trying for years -- some times with
quite comical results! -- you have been unable to find even one independent
expert who will back your outrageous claim that Cuba health stats are
somehow unreliable. Even your fellow ultra-conservatives at the
Washington-based World Bank have been forced to concede what "great job"
Cuba is doing in health care and education. Top officials of the Bank also
concede that these remarkable gains would NOT be sustainable under a
capitalist regime. And they, along with their sister organization, the
notorious IMF, have to power to ensure that this would indeed be the case.
There are many precedents for this. See Featured Article, "What do Cubans
stand to lose and who stands to gain?" at my website.

What Mr. Lobbyist snipped:

"Also, why hasn't the US bothered to "upgrade" the health and education
systems in the rest of Latin America? (The cheque is in the mail, right, Mr.
Lobbyist?) Instead, it is Cuba that upgrading health and education systems
there, sending thousands of doctors and teachers throughout the region."

No comment, Mr. Lobbyist? With public health care and education a shambles
in the rest of Latin America, why should we believe the US would now be
committed to "upgrading" them in Cuba when they are already the best in
region? It's all just a smokescreen for your evil intentions, isn't it?
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
The 400-plus page report discusses ways to modernize Cuba's aviation,
railroad and maritime infrastructure. It envisions U.S. aid in holding
free and fair elections, fighting corruption and establishing
independent trade unions.
And what expertise, if any, does the US have in these areas? Very little
it would seem these days.
but Cuba has none, no?
Since Castro all elections are pre-controlled by the regime that decides
who can be a candidate and who not.
Actually, candidates are nominated directly by the people themselves in open
public meetings, or by their democratically elected representatives who
themselves were nominated in this way. Too much democracy for you, Mr.
Lobbyist? We know that you believe such important decisions should be left
to the US Embassy and the local oligarchs, but that's your problem. In Cuba,
the majority rules. (See "Democracy in Cuba" at my website.)
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has
advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is
outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in
the internal affairs of another state," Smith said.
Well said, Mr. Smith.
as weel said as whe,n he stated that he does not support and "inmmediate
and unconditional" end to the trade sanctions as you always falsely
claimed about him?
Mr. Smith does want to keep up pressure for democratic change, no?
I don't support everything he says, but he is strongly opposed to the
embargo. See his website at:

http://ciponline.org/cuba/index.htm
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the
transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.
[snip]
And what is your reply
The US does not need to versee anything, just assist comrade Dan.
[snip]

Very evasive. Please answer his question.

Maybe the following will help. From a posting of yours last year:


Cuban Dissidents Reject Bush Pro-Democracy Plan

By Isabel Garcia-Zarza

HAVANA (Reuters) - Leading Cuban dissidents on Monday rejected President
Bush (news - web sites)'s plans to speed up a democratic transition in
communist-run Cuba and said U.S. meddling would not help bring political
change.

The White House announced steps on Thursday to spend $36 million on
promoting democratic change in Cuba and blocking a communist succession when
President Fidel Castro (news - web sites) dies.

The measures include new sanctions to squeeze the island's battered economy
and the broadcast of anti-Castro television signals from a military C-130
transport off Cuba.

"This is a total interference that does not benefit the building of
democracy in Cuba," said moderate dissident Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo, who
criticized Bush's policy in a statement he handed in at the U.S. diplomatic
mission in Havana.

"The United States has no right to set the pace of a transition in Cuba. It
is humiliating," said Manuel Cuesta Morua, another moderate who accompanied
Gutierrez Menoyo.

Cuba's best-known dissident, Oswaldo Paya, winner of the European
Parliament's Andrei Sakharov human rights prize, said it was up to Cubans,
not the United States or a European government, to design a post-Castro
transition for the Caribbean island.

Cuban dissidents also rejected Bush's plan to appoint a "transition
coordinator" in the next few weeks to implement the White House's
pro-democracy strategy, which aims to undermine the continuation of
communism in Cuba under Castro's younger brother and designated successor,
Raul Castro.

"The proposals are totally counterproductive," said veteran Cuban human
rights activist Elizardo Sanchez, who warned that opponents receiving U.S.
money would be immediately exposed to arrest.

Castro, 77, in power since a 1959 revolution, last year ordered the arrest
of 75 dissidents, who received prison terms of up to 28 years. Dissidents
are regularly branded traitors on Washington's payroll by the ruling
Communist Party.

The Cuban government has criticized the Bush measures as "cruel" steps to
toughen a U.S. economic blockade dating from 1962.

Cuba watchers questioned the timing of the measures and said they appeared
to be tailored to curry favor with hard-line Cuban-American voters in
Florida, an important state in November's presidential election.

CONCERN ON LIMITING VISITS

The White House measure most widely criticized by Cubans was limiting annual
visits to the island by Cuban- Americans living in the United States to one
trip every three years.

The Bush administration had toyed with the idea of cutting family
remittances by half, to deny the cash-strapped Castro government vital cash
inflows.

Facing criticism from Cuban-Americans, the White House opted instead to
reduce the frequency of visits, restrict remittances to immediate family
members and step up police action against "mules" taking illegal sums of
cash to Cuba.

Cubans living in the United States are allowed to remit up to $1,200 a year
to relatives in Cuba. Remittances are estimated to total from $300 million
to $1.2 billion a year.

"The people who drew up these measures obviously do not have family in
Cuba," said Harold Bloom, arriving in Havana from Miami for a visit.
Post by PL
Mr. Lobbyist?
Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.
[snip]

No lies or misquotes, Mr. Lobbyist, just your OWN words. You would like us
to forget all about your little indiscretion here -- your boasting here
about your lobbying exploits -- wouldn't you? Did you really think we would
be impressed???

In addition to your own words here, we have your prodigious production stats
here and at other forums. For details, see the thread "Top Official: US
Wants Cuba 'Liberation'" where our Mr. Lobbyist here obligingly runs through
almost his entire repertoire of desperate lies, distortions and evasions,
including those here, each debunked yours truly at:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_frm/thread/1ae3dea90e537555/c9ae6074e5dc9370?q=group:soc.culture.cuba+insubject:top+insubject:official#c9ae6074e5dc9370

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
tony fernandez
2005-10-05 21:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Lets go back to the original post that started this thread
first paragraph reads :" Fidel Castro is 79 years old and the bush
administration has big Ideas for Cuba once he departs." So it appears
that Castro was right all along in the tough security measures that he
has been forced to put into place to deal with the threat that the U.S.
imposes on Cubas national security in order to defend itself against
this foreign agression posed by the USA.
" When that day comes the U.S. wants to leave as little chance as
possible to the islands political fate". In other words they seek to
impose their will on the ISLAND.
" it is official U.S. policy to undermine Cubas succession from Castroto
his brother Raul 74".
Clearly this is interference in Cubas internal affairs and
soveriegnty.
" " wE ARE LOOKING TO SUPPORT A GENUINE transition to political
freedom for the Cuban people" the state department offical recently put
in charge of transition matters for Cuba."
Political freedom as long as they do what the U.S. wants. This is
obvious by the second parapragh . " when the day comes the U.S. wants to
leave as little chance as possible to the islands plitical fate.
It is obvious that PL and those like him are supporters of the U.S.
domination and subjugation of the latin Americans and that Castro and
now chavez stand in the way of their sceme to enslave the latin American
people .
Miguel
2005-10-06 03:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
Lets go back to the original post that started this thread
first paragraph reads :" Fidel Castro is 79 years old and the bush
administration has big Ideas for Cuba once he departs." So it appears
that Castro was right all along in the tough security measures that he
has been forced to put into place to deal with the threat that the U.S.
imposes on Cubas national security in order to defend itself against
this foreign agression posed by the USA.
" When that day comes the U.S. wants to leave as little chance as
possible to the islands political fate". In other words they seek to
impose their will on the ISLAND.
" it is official U.S. policy to undermine Cubas succession from Castroto
his brother Raul 74".
Clearly this is interference in Cubas internal affairs and
soveriegnty.
" " wE ARE LOOKING TO SUPPORT A GENUINE transition to political
freedom for the Cuban people" the state department offical recently put
in charge of transition matters for Cuba."
Political freedom as long as they do what the U.S. wants. This is
obvious by the second parapragh . " when the day comes the U.S. wants to
leave as little chance as possible to the islands plitical fate.
No. Freedom, period. Freedom of Speech. Freedom of Religion. Freedom
from Want and Fear. Freedom to vote and elect the candidates we want
and not a decrepit tyrant who has destroyed Cuba, who has killed,
tortured or jailed hundreds of thousands of Cubans, who has caused the
exile of 20% of the population, who have caused the deaths of over 80
thousand Cubans on the Florida Straits.

Tony, the tyrant you support is a mass murderer.
krp!
2005-10-06 13:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miguel
No. Freedom, period. Freedom of Speech. Freedom of Religion. Freedom
from Want and Fear. Freedom to vote and elect the candidates we want
and not a decrepit tyrant who has destroyed Cuba, who has killed,
tortured or jailed hundreds of thousands of Cubans, who has caused the
exile of 20% of the population, who have caused the deaths of over 80
thousand Cubans on the Florida Straits.
Tony, the tyrant you support is a mass murderer.
No freedom from hunger. No freedom from thirst. No freedom from contaminated
water and food.
No freedom from pain because of a contaminated environment.

BUT freedom from HAPPINESS!
PL
2005-10-06 09:02:14 UTC
Permalink
"tony fernandez" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:28549-43444921-***@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net...
(snip)
Post by tony fernandez
Clearly this is interference in Cubas internal affairs and
soveriegnty.
Nope. The Cuban people is the one that represents the sovereignty of the
nation.
It can delegate that to a democratically elected government.
In Cuba there is no democratically elected government and the as such the
regime can not claim to represent the nation.
Post by tony fernandez
" " wE ARE LOOKING TO SUPPORT A GENUINE transition to political
freedom for the Cuban people" the state department offical recently put
in charge of transition matters for Cuba."
Political freedom as long as they do what the U.S. wants.(snip)
Nope.
Political freedom as Cuban want it.

PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-06 22:00:34 UTC
Permalink
The U.S. doesn't give a hoot about political freedom or any other kind
of freedom. They have supported and continue to support the most
repressive governments in the world Pakistan, Egypt , Saudi arabia, and
Israel.
They don't care what the government does as long as they serve the
American interest.
In Haiti the U.S. supports an antidemocratic government that shoots
people in soccer stadiums in public view just like they supported the
murderous oligarchy in El Salvador. All the time giving lip serves to
human rights. Actions speak louder then words. The U.S. is today
engaged in a murderous campaign to subjugate the people of IRAQ and
tomorrow the world.
Has the world learned nothing that appeasement will not save them
from the American Blitzkieg?
PL
2005-10-07 07:44:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
The U.S. doesn't give a hoot about political freedom or any other kind
of freedom.
False.
Post by tony fernandez
They have supported and continue to support the most
repressive governments in the world Pakistan, Egypt , Saudi arabia, and
Israel.
and look at reorms started in Egypt, ...
Don't apply cold war logic to the future Tony.

PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-07 21:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Your wrong again PL the U.S. doesn't give a hoot about political freedom
or any other freedom. In Egypt the pro govenrment thugs attacked the
majority party when they held a peaceful rally and the U.S. said
nothing. In Haiti when the police stormed a soccer game and then
allowed progovernment thugs to massacre people with machetes the U.S.
said nothing. Niether did the U.S. croporate media for that matter. So
wake up and smell the coffee the U.S. is an evil empire that seeks to
subjugate the rest of the world. Not that the North American people
are really aware of what is going on but the people who control the
governments are out to subjugate other contries . They attack Iraq and
continue to commit all kinds of human right violation such as torture
and murder inorder to control the world oil suply. They support what
ever dictator serves their interest no matter how brutal, just ask the
people of Izbekistan.
PL
2005-10-08 15:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
Your wrong again PL
noipe. I am not.
You are just a dogmatic liar;
Post by tony fernandez
the U.S. doesn't give a hoot about political freedom
or any other freedom. (snip)
False as current developments show.
Stop living in the past (cold war).

PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-08 16:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Still wrong PL it was you who brought the former soviet union into the
discussion and it is you who are living in the cold war. The U.S.
still seeks to subjugate the people of Latin America as is evident in
their attacks and support of the Anti-Chavez coup and their failled
attempts to force their Latin American puppet to take a stand against
Chavez. The U.S. is anti democratic but they pay lip service because
talk is cheap. The Latin People WILL be FREE from U.S. domination!!!!
PL
2005-10-08 16:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
Still wrong PL it was you who brought the former soviet union into the
discussion
Get real.
Stop thinking in terms of a cold war that no longer exists.

PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-08 20:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Your the one stuck on the cold war PL , When I state the fact that the
U.S. supports dictators all over the world You bring up the soviet
Union. You Cannot deny that the U.S. will support any dictator that
does whatever the U.S. interest dictates and so you seek to distract by
bringing up he former soviet Union. You lose , again!
PL
2005-10-09 08:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
Your the one stuck on the cold war PL ,
Nop.
Post by tony fernandez
When I state the fact that the U.S. supports dictators all over the world
You bring up the soviet
Union.
which created the dictatorships and ran them directly you mean.
Post by tony fernandez
You Cannot deny that the U.S. will support any dictator that
does whatever the U.S. interest dictates (snip)
All I see is that even Egypt and Saudi Arabia are under pressure to become
more democratic.
I also see that Castro, the one you personally support, is a dictator.
You are a hypocrite Tony.
You attack the US for its alleged lack of condemning dictators and all you
do here is support a dictator.
You credibility is zero.

PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-09 11:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Saudi Arabia is under pressure and here I thought GWB was just holding
hands with the prince lol
You PL are the one that supports dictators,
You are the one that has no credability. I merely state the truth and
you always change the subject or start on personal attacks. The U.S.
doesn't really care about democracy. The U.S. has suported and
continues to support what ever ictator supports its interest! The U.S.
also overthrows democratically elected government whenever they fail to
obey or serve their interest!
+ krp !
2005-10-09 11:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
Saudi Arabia is under pressure and here I thought GWB was just holding
hands with the prince lol
You PL are the one that supports dictators,
Like YOUR heroes..... Castro, Kim Il Jung, Pol Pot, Joe Stalin were all
DEMOCRATS!!
PL
2005-10-09 13:32:40 UTC
Permalink
Saudi Arabia is under pressure (snip)
Ok thanks for confirmi,g you were wrong.
You PL are the one that supports dictators,
Nope.
Look at my record. I have condemned both Pinochet and Castro
You are a liar.

PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-09 15:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Poor PL now he is reduced to name calling. Tell me where did I lie?
Are you denying that the U.S. as and does support any dictator that
serves its interest?
PL
2005-10-09 15:16:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
Poor PL now he is reduced to name calling.
Nope.
I state facts and expose your lies.
Post by tony fernandez
Tell me where did I lie?
You calim I support dictators.
that is a lie.

PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-09 16:39:04 UTC
Permalink
No lie , You support the U.S. which oppresses the people of the third
world and supports the dictators that do thier dirty work such as
torture and oppression You lose agaai PL!!!
PL
2005-10-09 17:32:38 UTC
Permalink
No lie , (snip)
Yes a lie.
Quote me. We both know you can't.
I have condemned dictators from Castro to Pinochet.
I ontthe other hand can easily show you are an apologist for Fidel Castro, a
dictator on the list of Genocide Watch.
www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable.htm


PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-09 19:04:16 UTC
Permalink
So PL you don't deny that the U.S. tortures people and supports and has
always supported the dictators all ove the world that serve their
interest. Do you deny that the U.S. overthrows democratically elected
governments that do not serve their intrests? You support the U.S.
tyrrany and I don't support any dictators!!!!
PL
2005-10-09 20:18:51 UTC
Permalink
So PL you don't deny that (snip)
that you support a dictator that is on Genocide Watch's lis.
www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable.htm
I support freedom and respect of human rights in Cuba.
No more, no less.

PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-09 22:31:31 UTC
Permalink
I support freedom and Human rights worldwide and lots more. You PL
support the U.S. oppression of the third world.
PL
2005-10-10 09:28:44 UTC
Permalink
I support freedom and Human rights worldwide(snip)
Nope.
You support Fidel Castro that is a dictator that denies Cubans human rights
as the 70 reports linked from this page show:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm
You are a pathetic liar Tony.

PL
PL
2005-10-10 09:54:56 UTC
Permalink
I support freedom and Human rights worldwide(snip)
Nope.
You support Fidel Castro that is a dictator that denies Cubans human rights
as the 70 reports linked from this page show:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm
You are a pathetic liar Tony.

PL
tony fernandez
2005-10-10 10:13:15 UTC
Permalink
No you are th lier PL you support the oppreddor of all the third world
countries and I support freedom and justice for all. You lose again!!!
PL
2005-10-10 10:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
No you are th lier PL you support the oppreddor of all the third world
countries and I support freedom and justice for all. (snip)
False Tony.
Your favorite dictator is even on Genocide Watch's list.
You can't deny you support Fidel Castro and all his abuses.

PL
+ krp !
2005-10-10 14:29:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony fernandez
I support freedom and Human rights worldwide and lots more. You PL
support the U.S. oppression of the third world.
That's a joke. You support the Cuban and North Korean governments.
PM
2005-10-07 12:39:53 UTC
Permalink
THE REAL CUBA ..................... LA VRAIE CUBA..............LA CUBA
REAL...

SOME ARTICLES ARE IN SPANISH, ENGLISH OR
FRENCH

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Un verano caliente en el Estrecho
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
2. Médico opositor envía carta al Cardenal Jaime Ortega
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
3. Preocupa el aumento de presos políticos en Cuba
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
4. Robo en tienda de víveres dificulta las actividades
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
5. Amenazados y golpeados opositores pacíficos
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
6. Ninjas contra samurais
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
7. Cuban Agent Awaits Decision on Appeal
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
8. Estrenan 'Cuba mía' en televisión
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
9. Heineman schedules return to Cuba
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
10. Aumenta en 30 la cifra de presos políticos desde el mes de junio
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
11. Twenty FIU students fast in support of jailed Cubans
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
12. Cuba en los Objetivos y Metas del Milenio (IV)
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
13. Quiebra Alemania política de la Unión Europea de acercamiento a
Cuba
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
14. Aumenta tensión entre Cuba y la UE
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
15. Al rojo la tensión con Europa
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
16. Desmienten operativo de detención contra gays en Cuba
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
17. Fidel y el lavado de dinero: ¿otro encubrimiento?
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
18. Critics say Che Guevara film not welcome in Hispanic festival
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
19. Cuban officials boycott German unification reception
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
20. Solana dice que sería "absurdo" tener Embajadas en Cuba y pretender
que no se relacionen con el Gobierno de Castro
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
21. LIFE AFTER FIDEL
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
22. Preocupa el aumento de presos políticos en Cuba
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
23. Saddam Hussein en la prensa cubana
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
24. Vía crucis por una carta a Fidel Castro
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
25. Carta de Félix Navarro al teniente coronel Chediak Pérez
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:23:47 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Un verano caliente en el Estrecho

Posted on Wed, Oct. 05, 2005


Un verano caliente en el Estrecho

WILFREDO CANCIO ISLA
El Nuevo Herald

El Estrecho de la Florida experimentó este año un verano tan activo en
huracanes como en avalanchas migratorias desde Cuba.
La mitad de los 2,712 cubanos que trataron infructuosamente de llegar a
Estados Unidos durante el recién concluido año fiscal 2005, fueron
interceptados en alta mar entre junio y septiembre, período en el que se
produjeron 17 incidentes de contrabando humano, tres de ellos con
consecuencias fatales.
De acuerdo con estadísticas reveladas ayer por el Servicio Guardacostas, el
período fiscal del 2005 resultó el tercero más candente en aventuras
migratorias desde Cuba en los últimos 24 años, con particular actividad en
los meses veraniegos, cuando fueron capturados 1,335 inmigrantes.
Sólo en 1993 (2,882 cubanos capturados) y en la crisis de los balseros de
1994 (38,560) se registraron cifras superiores al concluir el ciclo fiscal,
el 30 de septiembre.
Fue también un verano asociado con una de las mayores tragedias de cubanos
en el Estrecho, luego de declararse desaparecidos 31 pasajeros de una lancha
de 28 pies de eslora que salió de Matanzas el 16 de agosto.
''Estamos actuando con determinación, porque cada vez es mayor el
atrevimiento de los contrabandistas utilizando lanchas rápidas en sus
fechorías'', dijo anoche Luis Díaz, portavoz del Servicio Guardacostas en
Miami. ``Pero no habrá tregua para combatir este negocio criminal, que pone
en peligro la vida de muchas personas''.
El funcionario señaló que la pasada semana resultó especialmente
congestionada de operativos ilegales, con diez incidentes de tráfico humano
desde la isla.
Si a las estadísticas de interceptaciones se añade la cifra de más de 1,800
cubanos que han logrado tocar territorio norteamericano sin ser abordados en
alta mar, la situación parece reflejar una imparable escalada migratoria.
Sin embargo, las autoridades dicen no sentirse preocupadas por la
posibilidad de un éxodo masivo de cubanos.
''Simplemente estamos alertas, pero no creemos que pueda producirse un éxodo
masivo desde Cuba'', apuntó Díaz. ``Las cifras de interceptación son también
indicativas de que hay mayor vigilancia en el Estrecho de la Florida, y de
que estamos haciendo un trabajo conjunto con otras agencias federales en
cuanto a tácticas operativas e información de inteligencia''.
Pero lo realmente significativo es que mientras disminuyeron el total de
intercepciones y el número de inmigrantes capturados por nacionalidades, los
cubanos marcaron la excepción.
Durante el período fiscal que terminó el pasado 30 de septiembre, fueron
detenidos en alta mar 9,289 inmigrantes, una estadística inferior a los
10,899 del 2004, cuando las intercepciones marcaron un récord para la
década.
La mayoría de los capturados en el intento fueron otra vez de República
Dominicana, Cuba y Haití, pero sólo los cubanos mantuvieron la tendencia
creciente. Los dominicanos interceptados fueron ahora 3,612 en comparación
con los 5,014 del pasado año fiscal, y los haitianos, 1,850 haitianos
(3,229).
En un comunicado inusualmente detallado, el Servicio Guardacostas se refirió
a seis incidentes de tráfico humano como los más prominentes ocurridos en el
verano, caracterizados por persecuciones a alta velocidad, enfrentamiento
violento con las autoridades y muertes de inmigrantes.
Un acápite se dedica a la operación desplegada el 25 de junio, en las
inmediaciones de de Cayo Hueso, para capturar una embarcación que navegaba a
gran velocidad. El patrón de la lancha fue identificado como José
González-Coca, un residente de Miami-Dade que ya se ha declarado culpable de
los cargos por tráfico humano y asalto con agravante a los guardacostas.
Su sentencia ha sido fijada para el 5 de enero próximo.
En la persecución, González-Coca trató de evadir las naves de los
guardacostas, desoyendo las advertencias con disparos y fuegos artificiales.
La lancha encalló en la playa de Cook Island, donde siete cubanos salieron
de la cabina y se adentraron en el islote. El tripulante fue arrestado y
llevado a un hospital con seis costillas fracturadas.
El documento también hace mención a la travesía del 22 de junio, con 33
personas a bordo, en la que perdió la vida José Angel Guizán Salaber, de 39
años, tras lesionarse en medio de la persecución de los guardacostas. Dos
contrabandistas fueron arrestados en el incidente.
Las autoridades tienen evidencias de que numerosos contrabandistas son
antiguos narcotraficantes que han reorientado su actividad criminal hacia un
lucrativo negocio que deja hasta $12,000 por inmigrante, así como residentes
legales, recién emigrados de Cuba, en busca de dinero fácil.


***@herald.com

http://www.miami.com/mld/elnuevo/news/world/cuba/12818352.htm






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:24:55 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Médico opositor envía carta al Cardenal Jaime Ortega


OLA REPRESIVA
Médico opositor envía carta al Cardenal Jaime Ortega

LA HABANA, Cuba - 4 de octubre (Roberto Santana Rodríguez /
www.cubanet.org)- Darsi Ferrer, médico opositor cubano envió el 3 de octubre
una carta al Cardenal Jaime Ortega, presidente del Consejo de Obispos de
Cuba, donde pide intercedan ante las autoridades cubanas en favor de los
prisioneros de conciencia Víctor Rolando Arroyo y Félix Navarro, en huelga
de hambre en la prisión de Guantánamo desde hace 24 y 21 días
respectivamente.

A continuación el texto íntegro de la misiva:

Obispos de Cuba:

Presidente del Consejo de Obispos de Cuba, Jaime Ortega Alamino:

En pasado reciente ustedes consideraron su deber pronunciarse por el diálogo
y la liberación de los que sufren prisión en Cuba por sus ideas.

Ese deber se incrementa con el peligro de muerte que amenaza en estos
momentos a Víctor Rolando Arroyo y Félix Navarro, en huelga de hambre desde
hace más de veinte días. Existe el antecedente de la muerte de Pedro Luis
Boitel por esta causa en la prisión del Castillo del Príncipe, el 24 de mayo
de 1972.

La Iglesia condena el suicidio; esos hermanos, inocentes en su prisión, no
se están suicidando, los están matando, pues a la huelga de hambre los
condujo la desesperación que les provoca el trato vejaminoso y las
condiciones infrahumanas a que los someten las autoridades penitenciarias,
no sin forzoso conocimiento de la más alta esfera del poder del país.

Aún si abandonaran la huelga, podemos afirmarles, tomando en cuenta los
criterios médicos establecidos, que ya sufren daños irreversibles en sus
organismos.

El pueblo cubano ignora esta situación. Incluso los más adictos al gobierno
del Sr. Fidel Castro sentirían compasión si fueran informados. La Iglesia,
que llamó a sus fieles a orar por los habitantes de New Orleans, ¿por qué
debe callar y no rogar públicamente por estos hermanos en peligro de muerte
física y espiritual?

Les pedimos intercedan ante las autoridades para que estas personas reciban
un trato acorde a los requisitos mínimos implementados por la Organización
de Naciones Unidas para el tratamiento de reclusos en los centros
penitenciarios, pues la única demanda de ellos se relaciona con el respeto a
su dignidad humana.

También pedimos rogativas públicas por la solución de esta tragedia humana.

El Jefe de Estado honrado por la Iglesia con el título de Comendador de una
de sus órdenes religiosas debe tener oídos para una súplica tan humana de la
Iglesia, y si no, los obispos no deben ser los sordos y mudos.

Ante caso tan extremo todo silencio no es sino complicidad con una crimen.

Darsi Ferrer Ramírez
Jaime Leygonier Fernández



http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y05/oct05/05a1.htm






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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:25:51 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Preocupa el aumento de presos políticos en Cuba

Fecha de la nota: 05/10/2005


Preocupa el aumento de presos políticos en Cuba

Denunciaron que existe un ''visible" incremento de la represión por parte
del régimen castrista. Y advirtieron que la situación política interna va a
empeorar en la isla
a cantidad de presos políticos en Cuba aumentó a 30 desde junio pasado,
donde llegaban a más de 300.

El presidente de la Comisión Cubana de Derechos Humanos y Reconciliación
Nacional (CCDHRN), Elizardo Sánchez, dijo a AFP que "como parte de las
detenciones en julio hay unos 30 nuevos presos políticos''

En julio pasado la CCDHRN anunció que el número de presos políticos en Cuba
pasó de 294 a 306 en los últimos seis meses y existe un ''visible aumento de
la represión policial y administrativa'' contra varios sectores de la
sociedad.

Sánchez consideró que ''hay un aumento de presos políticos y van a seguir
aumentando'', pues existe `"una represión a ciegas, cualquiera que diga algo
puede ser detenido y llevado preso''.

''El descontento popular sigue aumentando día a día de manera indetenible y
el gobierno sabe esto muy bien'', dijo Sánchez, quien consideró que ``las
cosas están mal y parece que van a empeorar''.

''La situación política interna va a empeorar porque va a aumentar la
represión'', remarcó.







http://www.infobae.com/notas/nota.php?Idx=214609&IdxSeccion=100439






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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:26:35 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Robo en tienda de víveres dificulta las actividades


SOCIEDAD
Robo en tienda de víveres dificulta las actividades

RANCHUELO, Cuba - 4 de octubre (Félix Reyes Gutiérrez, Cubanacán Press /
www.cubanet.org ) - Pobladores del municipio Ranchuelo manifiestan su
malestar desde hace más de veinte días debido a las dificultades que viene
afrontando con la tienda de víveres "La Criolla".

Un intento de hurto en la mencionada unidad comercial hace un mes provocó la
rotura de sus dos puertas principales de aluminio, las que permanecen
cerradas. La tienda se ha visto obligada a expender las mercancías en la
zona del almacén.

La puerta por la que ahora se realiza la doble función de recepcionar y
vender los productos, es de dos metros de alto por ochenta centímetros de
ancho. A la entrada han colocado un buró para vender a los doscientos
núcleos familiares que compran diariamente en dicha unidad. "Si fuera una
tienda 'dolarizada' ya el gobierno hubiera reparado el local", manifestó un
cliente, disgustado por la situación de la bodega.



http://cubanet.org/CNews/y05/oct05/05a2.htm






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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:27:01 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Amenazados y golpeados opositores pacíficos


REPRESION
Amenazados y golpeados opositores pacíficos

RANCHUELO, Cuba - 4 de octubre (Félix Reyes Gutiérrez, Cubanacán Press /
www.cubanet.org) - En la mañana del 27 de septiembre fueron amenazados,
expulsados y golpeados varios opositores pacíficos en la ciudad de Santa
Clara.

Más de una veintena de disidentes que se encontraban en las afueras de la
Audiencia Provincial para presenciar el juicio de Noelia Pedraza Jiménez,
miembro del Movimiento Democrático Cristiano de Cuba, fueron provocados,
echados y vapuleados por miembros de las llamadas Brigadas de Respuesta
Rápida (BRR) frente al local, sito en Carretera Central entre Juan Bruno
Zayas y Paseo de la Paz.

Guillermo Fariñas Hernández, director del Foro de Estudios Sociales Marta
Abreu, fue impedido de participar en la vista oral de Pedraza, al ser
interceptado y conducido en un auto color rojo hasta su hogar por el segundo
jefe de Enfrentamiento a la Actividad Subversiva Enemiga, mayor Fulgencio
Bague.

Cuando intentaba entrar en la sala por la puerta principal Yunieski García
López, Roberto Carlos Pérez, Enrique Hernández Martínez y Regino, fueron
empujados por los paramilitares de las BRR, mientras que Yunieski fue
arrastrado, golpeado y arañado por una mujer nombrada Nereida.

Finalmente los opositores fueron expulsados y conducidos a más de diez
cuadras de la Sala Popular Penal Municipal e imposibilitados de participar
en el juicio contra Nereyda Pedraza.

La opositora pacífica fue sancionada a siete meses de privación de libertad
por un supuesto delito de amenaza al orden público.



http://cubanet.org/CNews/y05/oct05/05a3.htm






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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:23:03 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Ninjas contra samurais


ECONOMIA INFORMAL
Ninjas contra samurais

Ramón González Abreu, Cubanacán Press

SANTA CLARA, Cuba - Octubre (www.cubanet.org) - Es una verdad irrebatible
que existe y toma cada día más fuerza la lucha a muerte entre el mercado
estatal y el mercado negro; entre los partidarios de la centralización y el
financiamiento presupuestario y los que defienden la iniciativa privada y la
liberalización económica.

Los cuentapropistas, pequeños dueños de negocios a los que se otorgó una
patente para realizar actividades económicas, atraviesan hoy por serias
restricciones y limitaciones, acosados por un enjambre de inspectores.
Además, viven agobiados por los impuestos.

Muchos de ellos fueron obligados a entregar la licencia comercial. A otros
se las retiraron. Para sobrevivir han tenido que acudir a la producción,
comercialización y venta de bienes y prestación de servicios de forma
ilegal.

Los artesanos, pequeños productores privados, con sus innovaciones y
variedad de iniciativas puestas en práctica, demostraron una mayor
eficiencia económica que las empresas estatales, que no podían competir con
el mercado particular. Esto se manifiesta en la oferta de la empresa privada
tiene una mejor calidad y presentación, con mejores precios, garantía,
seguridad y menores costos.

Ante el derrumbe de la gastronomía estatal, cuyas operaciones financieras
iban en bancarrota y muchos centros cerraban sus puertas, el estado
arremetió contra la iniciativa privada representada por los cuentapropistas,
tomando arbitrarias medidas. Redujo estas actividades con el objetivo de
eliminarla y así esconder la verdad de que la iniciativa privada despliega
las fuerzas productivas y la centralización las entorpece.

Producto de la situación antes mencionada, hubo un incremento inusitado del
mercado negro, al que acude la población en busca de los artículos y
servicios necesarios para la subsistencia. Este mercado vive gracias al
aliento del pueblo, a pesar de la persecución de que es objeto por parte de
la policía.

Es conocido el reto que para el gobierno significa la presencia permanente
de esta actividad. En los alrededores del mercado estatal de las calles
Amparo y San Miguel, un dirigente de la Asamblea Municipal del Poder Popular
en Santa Clara manifestó que no se explicaba cómo en un lugar de Santa Clara
donde se realiza una batida a los cuentapropistas y vendedores ilegales, al
instante se escuchan nuevamente los pregones de cárnicos, vegetales, fideos,
mantequilla.

La voz popular bautizó a los cuentapropistas como "ninjas" y a los policías
"samurais". No es extraño escuchar a los vecinos decir: "Ahí va Pancho
huyendo como un ninja".

Mientras siga el mercado estatal centralizado con su ineficiencia, el pueblo
seguirá buscando en el mercado negro lo posible para resolver sus
necesidades. Continuará el samurai que defiende la propiedad del estado y el
sistema totalitario, y los ninjas que están por la libertad económica.



http://cubanet.org/CNews/y05/oct05/05a6.htm






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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:29:25 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Cuban Agent Awaits Decision on Appeal


Cuban Agent Awaits Decision on Appeal
By VANESSA ARRINGTON, Associated Press WriterTue Oct 4, 3:43 PM ET

In Miami, Rene Gonzalez is vilified as a spy for Fidel Castro's government.
In Cuba, he is seen as a hero who risked his freedom to protect his people
from anti-communist extremists.
His brother, Roberto, a Havana lawyer, says neither black-and-white
depiction sounds much like the Rene he knows - a voracious reader, pilot and
lover of the ocean who shuns the limelight.
Rene Gonzalez, who awaits news of his fate in a U.S. prison, is among five
Cubans convicted four years ago of serving as unregistered foreign agents.
A three-judge panel overturned the convictions on appeal in August and
ordered a retrial, citing prejudicial publicity in the original Miami trial.
But federal prosecutors last week asked the full 11th U.S. Circuit Court of
Appeals in Atlanta to reconsider, extending the drama.
Rene and Roberto Gonzalez are U.S. citizens, born in Chicago to Cuban
parents. But as Castro consolidated power after the Cuban revolution,
prompting many to flee to the United States, their parents returned with
their young sons in 1961.
Rene Gonzalez, 49, is not particularly political, his brother said in a
recent interview in Havana.
"He has said you can be a capitalist, and be a good person, or be a
communist, and be good. What you can't be is a terrorist and a good person,"
said Roberto Gonzalez, 47.
This aversion to violence led Rene Gonzalez to infiltrate exile groups in
Florida after returning to the United States in the early 1990s, his brother
said. Attacks on Cuba, which later included a string of Havana bombings that
killed a tourist in 1997, appalled him. Roberto Gonzalez said his brother
felt the attacks originated in the Cuban exile community and that U.S
authorities weren't doing enough to stop them.
But in Miami, where many exiles vehemently oppose the island's communist
government, the agents are considered dangerous conspirators.
"Over here, they are seen as true spies," said Manny Vazquez, a lawyer and
board director of the Miami-based Cuban American National Foundation. "They
came over here under false pretenses to spy on the Cuban community and the
American armed forces."
Vazquez called the notion the agents were fighting terrorism "baloney."
Castro, he said, has sent spies to the United States since shortly after
taking power in 1959.
"I'm sure there are tons of spies here now who have not been uncovered," he
said.
Roberto Gonzalez bristles at the word "spy," noting his brother was not
convicted of espionage and that the five never attempted to steal national
defense secrets.
But he also laughs at the image of his brother as an exalted hero.
Pictures of Rene Gonzalez and the four others are plastered all over the
island in a high-profile campaign blaring their innocence and virtue.
Solidarity groups in countries from Argentina to France have launched "Free
the Five" committees with the Cuban government's help.
Roberto Gonzalez said his brother appreciates the support but does not want
to be a celebrity the day he returns home.
"What my brother would want most is to sit on the Malecon and not be
recognized by anyone," he said, referring to Havana's famed seawall.
Not all agents charged with infiltrating Miami's exile community have
received hero status in Cuba. The island's media never mentions the
half-dozen who have reached plea bargain agreements to avoid trial.
But Cuban officials hoped Rene Gonzalez and the other four "heroes" would
attract sympathetic publicity in the United States like another Cuban
symbol, Elian Gonzalez.
Elian was the Cuban boy found clinging to an inner tube after a boat filled
with Cuban migrants sank off the Florida coast five years ago, killing his
mother. Polls showed many Americans sided with Elian's father, who
successfully fought to have the boy returned to Cuba.
But the agents have sparked little interest among Americans.
"It's not anything that touches the average American directly," said Wayne
Smith, a former U.S. envoy to Cuba who now heads the Cuba program at the
Washington-based Center for International Policy. "There's not a sense of
outrage."
News of the August court ruling, however, reached a broad audience,
prompting leftist intellectuals in the United States and elsewhere to sign a
letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez urging the immediate release of
the men.
Before the new ruling, Rene Gonzalez was serving a 15-year sentence. Three
of his co-defendants were sentenced to life imprisonment and the fourth to
19 years.
All five were convicted in 2001 of serving as unregistered agents of a
foreign government. The three who received life sentences were also
convicted of espionage conspiracy for efforts to penetrate U.S. military
bases, although they obtained no U.S. secrets. One, Gerardo Hernandez, was
also found guilty of murder conspiracy in the deaths of four Miami-based
pilots whose small, private planes were shot down by a Cuban MiG in 1996.
Smith was among those applauding the reversal of the convictions, saying the
men received exaggerated sentences.
"It seems to me the simple fact that they didn't register as agents was not
very damning," Smith said. "I don't see that they did any harm while they
were here."
Roberto Gonzalez is confident a new jury, in another city, will agree.
"It took the prejudice of Miami to condemn them," he said. "An honest person
will see that they're innocent."


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20051004/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cuba_us_espionage_1






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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:30:17 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Estrenan 'Cuba mía' en televisión

Posted on Wed, Oct. 05, 2005

Zoom

Estrenan 'Cuba mía' en televisión

By JOSE ANTONIO EVORA
El Nuevo Herald

El documental Cuba mía, sobre el rencuentro de una pareja de judíos de
origen cubano con el país de donde partieron al exilio cuatro décadas antes,
a raíz de que el nuevo gobierno se apropiara por la fuerza de los negocios
de sus familias, tendrá su premiere en televisión esta noche a las 9, y el
domingo a las 5 de la tarde, en el Canal 2, PBS.
Dirigida por Rhonda L. Mitrani, Cuba mía es una crónica del viaje que
hicieron a la isla en 1998 sus padres, Elías y Aida Mitrani, acompañados por
otras tres parejas: Sergio y Rosa Zelcer, Luis y Cookie Stabinski, y Fabio y
Male Nick. Lo que motivó a Rhonda, que entonces tenía 24 años, fue dejar
constancia de la extraordinaria experiencia que iban a tener todos,
especialmente su padre.
''Iba a ser uno de los momentos más grandes de sus vidas, y quise que
pudieran conservarlo de alguna manera'', dijo Rhonda a The Miami Herald en
el 2002, cuando el documental fue estrenado en la decimonovena edición del
Festival Internacional de Cine de Miami. ``Es un filme sobre la nostalgia y
la identidad desplazada; todos iban en busca de algo muy personal''.
Además de revivir el pasado, el grupo se proponía llevar a sinagogas de La
Habana y de Santiago de Cuba donaciones de medicinas y libros de oración a
nombre del grupo de Miami Beach Jewish Solidarity Foundation.
Cada uno de los protagonistas redescubre su infancia en la isla. La cámara
sigue los pasos de Luis Stabinski cuando va a la que había sido la tienda de
guayaberas de su padre, y a Male Nick en su visita a la escuela donde cursó
la primaria. Las imágenes de la deteriorada sinagoga alternan con
fotografías de cómo estaba antes.
Como colofón está la visita al cementerio donde reposan los restos de los
antepasados de los Mitrani. La realizadora, además, conversa por separado
con cada pareja, y en ese diálogo se perfilan ya las repercusiones que la
visita tendrá a largo plazo para todos.
''Es algo muy delicado'', dijo Rhonda al Herald. ``El regreso a un lugar que
hacía muchos años querían volver a ver''..
***@herald.com
Estreno en televisión del documental de Rhonda L. Mitrani 'Cuba mía'. 46
minutos. En español e inglés. Canal 2 (PBS), esta noche a las 9, y el
domingo a las 5 p.m.



http://www.miami.com/mld/elnuevo/living/12816562.htm






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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:28:31 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Heineman schedules return to Cuba

Heineman schedules return to Cuba
By The Associated PressCuba has been very good to Gov. Dave Heineman. After
securing deals in August for the communist island nation to buy $30 million
in Nebraska agricultural products in the next year and a half, Heineman
announced Tuesday that he is returning later this month for a second trade
mission.




The trade mission is scheduled to run from Oct. 30 to Nov. 2 and will
include a visit to the International Trade Fair in Havana.

The exact makeup of the delegation has not been set, but Heineman's
spokesman Aaron Sanderford said it will be focused on agricultural
interests. Due to about half a dozen requests, the governor's office also
extended an invitation to members of the media who would like to attend and
pay their own way.

The original 10-member trade mission included Heineman, the state's
agriculture secretary and members of the Nebraska Farm Bureau and the
state's
corn and wheat boards.

A decades-old U.S. embargo against Cuba severely limits travel and trade
with the island, but an exception created in 2000 allows food and
agricultural products to be sold on a cash-only basis.

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2005/10/05/nebraska/doc434313ec43599417558537.txt






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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:31:02 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Aumenta en 30 la cifra de presos políticos desde el mes de junio

Posted on Wed, Oct. 05, 2005


Aumenta en 30 la cifra de presos políticos desde el mes de junio

Agence France Presse
LA HABANA

El número de presos políticos en Cuba, fijados en 306 en junio pasado,
creció en unas 30 personas desde entonces, en una ''nueva ola represiva'',
aseguró el presidente de la ilegal Comisión Cubana de Derechos Humanos y
Reconciliación Nacional (CCDHRN), Elizardo Sánchez.
''Como parte de las detenciones en julio hay unos 30 nuevos presos
políticos'', dijo Sánchez a la prensa durante una recepción en la embajada
de Alemania en La Habana, a la que fueron invitados varios opositores.
En su reporte semestral, difundido en julio pasado, la CCDHRN dijo que el
número de presos políticos en Cuba pasó de 294 a 306 en los últimos seis
meses y existe un ''visible aumento de la represión policial y
administrativa'' contra varios sectores de la sociedad.
Las autoridades cubanas no ofrecen cifras oficiales sobre los reclusos.
Sánchez consideró que ''hay un aumento de presos políticos y van a seguir
aumentando'', pues existe ``una represión a ciegas, cualquiera que diga algo
puede ser detenido y llevardo preso''.
''El descontento popular sigue aumentando día a día de manera indetenible y
el gobierno sabe esto muy bien'', dijo Sánchez, quien consideró que ``las
cosas están mal y parece que van a empeorar''.
''La situación política interna va a empeorar porque va a aumentar la
represión'', remarcó.
La dirigente disidente Marta Beatriz Roque, quien también asistió a la
recepción en la sede diplomática, aseguró que la mayoría de los nuevos
detenidos pertenece a su organización opositora, la Asamblea para la
Promoción de la Sociedad Civil (APPSC).
''Las detenciones están aumenando, contrario a lo que esperábamos. La
mayoría son de nuestra Asamblea. Estamos muy mal'', dijo Roque.
La CCDHRN considera que ``el número de presos de conciencia cubanos
(adoptados por Amnistía Internacional) es el más alto del mundo''.

http://www.miami.com/mld/elnuevo/news/world/cuba/12817505.htm






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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:31:50 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Twenty FIU students fast in support of jailed Cubans

Posted on Wed, Oct. 05, 2005

HUNGER STRIKE
Twenty FIU students fast in support of jailed Cubans

BY DAVID OVALLE
***@herald.com

A group of Florida International University students fasted Tuesday
afternoon to show solidarity with two jailed Cuban dissidents who are on a
hunger strike protesting long prison terms and dismal conditions.
About 20 students sat in silence at the university's food court, holding
signs depicting Victor Rolando Arroyo and Félix Navarro Rodríguez, who were
jailed by the Castro regime in a dissident roundup more than two years ago.
''What's happening there is an injustice,'' said Veronica Valdes, 21, a
senior majoring in international relations. ``They're denying people basic
human rights.''
Their health faltering, Arroyo and Rodríguez were transferred this week from
a prison infirmary in Cuba's Guantánamo province to separate jails elsewhere
on the island, the Spanish news agency EFE reported this week.
Arroyo, a journalist, began his hunger strike Sept. 10, EFE reported.
He was accused of ''undermining national independence'' and sentenced to 26
years in prison in March, according to Reporters Without Borders.
Rodríguez, sentenced to 25 years, began his own hunger strike a few days
later.
The FIU students, some Cuban Americans like Valdes, organized Tuesday's fast
with the help of Directorio Democrático Cubano (Cuban Democratic
Directorate), a Hialeah-based organization that supports pro-democracy
movements on the island.
''These young people just contacted us,'' said executive director Janisset
Rivero. ``For us, it's great because there is a need for new people to come
into this struggle.''

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/12820873.htm






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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:33:27 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Cuba en los Objetivos y Metas del Milenio (IV)


ECONOMIA
Cuba en los Objetivos y Metas del Milenio (IV)

Oscar Espinosa Chepe

LA HABANA, Cuba - Octubre (www.cubanet.org) - La Meta 2 de los Objetivos de
Desarrollo del Milenio (ODM) establece: "Reducir a la mitad, en 2015
respecto a 1990, la proporción de población que sufre hambre".

El gobierno cubano, con el propósito de mostrar pretendidos logros en la
lucha contra la pobreza, en su Segundo Informe sobre el Cumplimiento de los
ODM brindó un estimado de suministro de energía alimentaria promedio per
cápita diario entre 3,007 y 3,165 kilocalorías para el período 1999-2003,
con un riesgo de subalimentación reducido a niveles menores del 2% de la
población.

Según el citado informe, la disponibilidad alimentaria promedio per cápita
diaria entre 1999 y 2001 fue 3,007 kilocalorías, mientras las referentes a
2000-2002 y 2001-2003 son e3 3,096 y 3,165 kilocalorías, respectivamente.
Hubiera sido más práctico y útil haber presentado estas cifras por períodos
o años separados. De todas formas, indican una impactante ingesta de
calorías, superior a casi todos los países latinoamericanos, incluidos
reconocidos productores de alimentos, como Argentina. No obstante, si se
analizan los datos ofrecidos más cuidadosamente, inmediatamente comienza a
surgir el escepticismo sobre la veracidad de estos consumos de calorías.

Como hemos demostrado en artículos anteriores, basados en informaciones
oficiales, la sociedad cubana continúa inmersa en la crisis, con una
economía que todavía en sentido general no ha rebasado los niveles de 1989,
particularmente respecto a la producción de alimentos. En el período
1985-1989, inferior a la crisis, con abundantes suministros de alimentos y
recursos para la agricultura y la industria alimentaria procedentes de
Europa del Este, el consumo diario de calorías per cápita ascendió como
promedio a 2,966 kilocalorías (Oficina Nacional de Estadísticas [ONE] y
CEPAL).

Entonces habría que preguntar ¿cómo es posible que una nación envuelta en
una crisis y con caídas impresionantes en la producción de alimentos, a lo
que se agrega una población en crecimiento (10.5 millones de habitantes en
1989 a más de 11 millones a partir de 1999) pudo haber aumentado tan
extraordinariamente la ingesta per cápita de calorías diaria?

Si se examina con detenimiento el cuadro que se presenta a continuación
puede constatarse que de una lista de 15 artículos alimentarios básicos de
origen nacional, únicamente en dos -las viandas y las hortalizas- se aumento
la producción por habitante entre el comienzo de la crisis y principios de
la década de 2000. Pueden observarse descensos espectaculares después de
aproximadamente casi 13 años de comenzada la crisis en artículos como la
carne de res (-53%), carne de ave (-55.2%), huevos (-59%), producción de
leche de vaca (-43%), leche pasteurizada (-64.9%) y la captura bruta de
pescado (-53.8%), entre otras reducciones productivas de alimentos
esenciales para la vida humana.

Producción de alimentos por habitante. Unidad: kilogramos

ALIMENTOS
1989
PROMEDIO 2000-2002
INCREMENTO O DESCENSO PER CAPITA %

Viandas (1)
96.0 *
149.0 **
55.2

Hortalizas
45.3 *
130.2 **
187.4

Arroz consumo
23.5
6.7
-71.5

Cítricos
78.1
71.3
-8.7

Vacuno (2)
27.3
12.84
-53.0

Porcino (2)
12.0 *
11.4 *
-5.0

Carne de ave (producción)
12.5 *
5.6
-55.2

Huevos (unidad)
255 *
146
-59.0

Pescado (3)
13.4
5.5 **
-53.8

Azúcar (4)
750
320
-57.4

Leche de vaca (producción)
96.7 *
55.0 **
-43.0

Leche pasteurizada
64.6
22.7
-64.9

Pan
47.0
42.5
-9.6

Pastas alimenticias
5.0
3.1
-38.0

Aceite vegetal refinado
7.2
2.1
-70.9


(1) Incluye tubérculos, raíces y plátanos
(2) Entregas a sacrificio en pie
(3) Captura bruta
(4) Físico
* 1990
** 2000-2001

FUENTES:
- Anuario de la Oficina Nacional de Estadísticas (ONE)
- Comisión Económica para América Latina y el Caribe (CEPAL)

El aumento en las viandas es el resultado de cierta flexibilización en la
política seguida con el sector campesino, en particular la reapertura de los
Mercados Libres Agropecuarios a mediados de los años noventa, a los cuales
los pequeños agricultores pueden concurrir para ofertar determinados
productos a precios del mercado, después de cumplir los rigurosos
compromisos de entrega con el Estado a precios de acopio poco estimulantes.

El cultivo de las hortalizas y vegetales también fue incentivado con la
apertura de los Mercados Libres Agropecuarios. Además, ha ayudado la
creación de huertos agropónicos y parcelas individuales destinados al
cultivo de hortalizas y vegetales en terrenos baldíos de ciudades y pueblos,
mediante la aplicación de incentivos laborales y métodos de gestión
novedosos en Cuba, experiencias que ya habían sido ensayadas con cierto
éxito en las Fuerzas Armadas. Se desconoce el grado de rentabilidad
económica de esos experimentos, pero resulta innegable que, por lo menos, en
estos rubros agrícolas han existido avances demostrativos de los beneficios
de las medidas dirigidas a la liberación de las fuerzas productivas, el
incentivo laboral y el libre juego de la oferta y la demanda, aunque en
estos casos han sido aplicadas en dosis muy limitadas.

Podría pensarse que ante el calamitoso escenario de la producción nacional
de alimentos, el gobierno pudo haber suplido el déficit resultante mediante
las importaciones. Sin embargo, dada la exigua capacidad de compra en el
exterior, esta variante no pudo ser concretada. De acuerdo con las
estadísticas publicadas por la ONE, en los años 1985-1989 las compras de
alimentos ascendieron como promedio anual a 870.3 millones de pesos, a
precios corrientes. En iguales condiciones, en el período 1999-2001 fueron
de 771.3 millones de pesos, es decir, un descenso del 11.4%. En términos de
volumen físico, la caída debió ser superior si se tiene en cuenta la pérdida
del poder adquisitivo de las monedas con el tiempo, el hecho de que la
inmensa mayoría de los comestibles adquiridos antes de 1990 provenían de
Europa del Este a precios subsidiados, y los "acuerdos fraternales" con esta
área, muy beneficiosos para Cuba -intercambio de leche en polvo por levadura
torula con la RDA o el de una tonelada de papa de Cuba por dos toneladas de
la RDA, entre otras ayudas y donaciones constantemente recibidas en la Isla.

Debe agregarse que a la significativa reducción de disponibilidad de
alimentos se suma una alta dependencia del exterior respecto a los
nutrientes asequibles. El 55% de las calorías, el 50% de las proteínas y el
90% de las grasas consumidas por la población provenían de las importaciones
a fines de los años noventa, según lo informado en el V Congreso de la
Asociación Nacional de Economistas y Contadores de Cuba (Juventud Rebelde,
enero 2002). Esa situación no parece haber variado sensiblemente.

Desde que la administración Bush autorizó las ventas de alimentos y
medicinas a Cuba en diciembre de 2001, se han comprado más de 130 millones
de dólares en el primer rubro. Estas ventas ciertamente han representado un
rudo golpe adicional al ficticio embargo, únicamente útil para dar
argumentos y pretextos a los sectores más reaccionarios del gobierno cubano,
pero no han significado un incremento real en el suministro de alimentos a
la población por tratarse, generalmente, de desvíos de compras anteriormente
efectuadas en otros mercados.

Como puede apreciarse, tanto las fuentes internas como externas de alimentos
se han minorado, circunstancia agravada en los últimos cuatro años por el
azote de seis intensos huracanes, que junto a otros fenómenos meteorológicos
han ocasionado daños por cientos de millones de dólares, a lo que se agrega
una fuerte sequía desde 2003 que afecta todavía a zonas orientales de la
Isla, con pérdidas hasta fines de mayo estimadas en más de 1,200 millones de
dólares. Adversidades con consecuencias especialmente desastrosas en el
sector agropecuario, en particular las producciones de carne y leche ya
desde antes muy golpeadas por la crisis.

Aunque desde 2001 no existen datos estadísticos sobre el monto de la masa
vacuna (4 millones de cabezas) podría estimarse que actualmente, con los
factores negativos adicionales enunciados, la cantidad de reses pudiera
estar en un entorno de 3.7 millones. Cuba, a mediados de los años sesenta,
era una de las naciones del mundo con mayor índice de vacunos por habitante,
con una masa ascendente a 7.2 millones, con alimentación y condiciones de
atención aceptables, diferentes al desmedrado estado del ganado hoy, que va
desapareciendo de forma lenta y continuada.

Otros aspectos del complicado y preocupante problema de la alimentación de
los cubanos serán tratados en un próximo artículo.

Cuba en los Objetivos y Metas del Milenio (III)

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y05/sep05/27a5.htm

Cuba en los Objetivos y Metas del Milenio (II)

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y05/sep05/23a6.htm

Cuba en los Objetivos y Metas del Milenio (I)

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y05/sep05/20a9.htm





http://cubanet.org/CNews/y05/oct05/05a8.htm






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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:34:23 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Quiebra Alemania política de la Unión Europea de acercamiento a
Cuba


Miércoles 5 de octubre de 2005
El bloqueo ocasionó pérdidas a la salud pública de la isla por más de 75
mdd
Quiebra Alemania política de la Unión Europea de acercamiento a Cuba
Invitó a recepción en su embajada en La Habana a los principales dirigentes
opositores
REUTERS Y AFP

La Habana, 4 de octubre. Alemania quebró el lunes anterior la política de la
Unión Europea de acercamiento al gobierno de Cuba, al invitar a los
principales opositores de la isla a una recepción con motivo del Día de la
Reunificación.
El gobierno cubano no hizo comentarios sobre la invitación, pero faltó el
lunes anterior al mediodía a una recepción especial ofrecida por la sede
diplomática alemana.
Informó por otra parte este martes que el embargo económico estadunidense a
Cuba ocasionó afectaciones a la salud pública por más de 75 millones de
dólares, entre junio de 2004 y abril de 2005.
El embajador alemán, Ulrich Lunscken, dijo durante la recepción que "la
unificación de Alemania fue consecuencia del fracaso de la economía
socialista planificada".
El diplomático proyectó luego para sus invitados el filme Goodbye Lenin,
sobre la transición en Alemania tras el derrumbe del Muro de Berlín.
Por la noche, en los jardines de la residencia del embajador alemán estaban
las principales figuras de la oposición, como Elizardo Sánchez Santacruz, de
la Comisión Cubana de Derechos Humanos, o Marta Beatriz Roque, de la
Asamblea para Promover la Sociedad Civil en Cuba.
La participación de la disidencia revistió a la velada de un significado
particular, por ser la primera de una embajada de un país miembro de la
Unión Europea desde enero pasado, cuando el bloque levantó las sanciones
contra la isla impuestas en junio de 2003, en represalia por la detención en
Cuba de 75 disidentes.
Al suspender la Unión Europea las sanciones a fin de restablecer un diálogo
con Cuba -decisión ratificada en junio-, el Comité Político de los 25 países
recomendó que la participación en las fiestas de las embajadas en La Habana
se limitara a diplomáticos y ciudadanos europeos, lo que excluye al gobierno
y la disidencia cubanos.
Pero fue Francia el que primero quebró el acuerdo, pues el pasado 14 de
julio invitó al gobierno cubano a la celebración de su fiesta nacional y
excluyó a la disidencia.
De su lado, el ministro de Salud Pública, José Ramón Balaguer, aseveró que
"en el sector, en el periodo comprendido entre junio 2004 y abril 2005, el
bloqueo (estadunidense) provocó afectaciones valoradas en 75.7 millones de
dólares".
Agregó que esa cifra "no incluye el incalculable daño ocasionado por las
carencias de medicamentos, equipos y material gastable en todas las
instalaciones de la red nacional de la salud".
Esa política restrictiva que mantiene Washington sobre la isla desde 1962
"ha causado enormes sufrimientos al pueblo cubano. Sectores altamente
sensibles para el bienestar de la población han estado entre los principales
blancos de esta política genocida", apuntó el ministro.
El informe anual de Cuba al secretario general de Naciones Unidas, Kofi
Annan, presentado a la prensa la pasada semana en La Habana, señaló que "el
daño económico directo causado al pueblo cubano por la aplicación del
bloqueo (desde su inicio), a partir de cálculos conservadores preliminares,
supera los 82 mil millones de dólares, con un promedio de mil 782 millones
de dólares anuales".

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2005/10/05/038n1mun.php






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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:35:14 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Aumenta tensión entre Cuba y la UE

Aumenta tensión entre Cuba y la UE
Por asistencia de disidentes a fiesta nacional alemana
miércoles, 05 octubre 2005

La Habana.- La asistencia de disidentes a la fiesta nacional alemana en La
Habana tensó aún más las relaciones entre el Gobierno de Cuba y una Unión
Europea (UE) dividida en torno a su política hacia la isla, pero que
mantiene su presión por los derechos humanos.
En un hecho simbólico, similar a otros que en 2003 ayudaron a enfriar el
vínculo entre la UE y Cuba, Alemania invitó al gobierno y a la oposición a
festejar la reunificación alemana el pasado lunes en actividades separadas;
pero ningún funcionario cubano acudió a la recepción.
Diplomáticos europeos presentes en la recepción coincidieron en señalar que
la relación entre la UE y Cuba está complicada, en tanto que líderes
opositores señalaron que su presencia en la fiesta puede aumentar aún más
las tensiones.
"A las autoridades cubanas no les gusta nada esto. Pero se trata de fomentar
el diálogo con todos los sectores de la sociedad. La relación entre la UE y
el Gobierno de Cuba están bastante difíciles", afirmó un diplomático
europeo.
La invitación a los disidentes, la primera de un país europeo desde que la
UE levantó en enero sanciones impuestas a la isla en junio de 2003 por una
ola represiva contra opositores, rompe un acuerdo del bloque de no invitar a
sus fiestas en La Habana ni al gobierno ni a opositores.
La situación es aún más compleja dada la división en el seno de la UE en
torno a la política hacia Cuba. Francia fue el primero que quebró el
acuerdo, pues el pasado 14 de julio invitó al Gobierno cubano a su fiesta
nacional y excluyó a la disidencia.
Mientras tanto, España, cuyo gobierno socialista impulsó el levantamiento de
las sanciones, celebrará el 12 de octubre su fiesta nacional y haría lo
mismo que Francia; en tanto que el 28 será el turno de la República Checa,
cuya posición coincide con la de Alemania. (AFP)


http://www.correodelcaroni.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10784&Itemid=117






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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:35:51 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Al rojo la tensión con Europa

Posted on Wed, Oct. 05, 2005


Al rojo la tensión con Europa

Agence France Presse
LA HABANA

La asistencia de disidentes a la fiesta nacional alemana en La Habana tensó
aún más las relaciones entre el gobierno de Cuba y una Unión Europea (UE)
dividida en torno a su política hacia la isla, pero que mantiene su presión
por los derechos humanos.
En un hecho simbólico, similar a otros que durante el 2003 ayudaron a
enfriar el vínculo entre la UE y Cuba, Alemania invitó al gobierno y a la
oposición a festejar la reunificación alemana el lunes en actividades
separadas. Sin embargo, ningún funcionario cubano acudió a la recepción.
''La unificación de Alemania fue consecuencia del fracaso de la economía
socialista planificada'', dijo el embajador alemán Ulrich Lunscken en la
velada a la que asistió la disidencia.
Diplomáticos europeos presentes en la recepción coincidieron en señalar que
la relación entre la UE y Cuba está complicada. Líderes opositores señalaron
que su presencia en la fiesta puede aumentar aún más las tensiones.
''A las autoridades cubanas no les gusta nada esto. Pero se trata de
fomentar el diálogo con todos los sectores de la sociedad. La relación entre
la UE y el gobierno de Cuba están bastante difíciles'', afirmó un
diplomático.
La invitación a los disidentes, la primera de un país europeo desde que la
UE levantó en enero sanciones impuestas a la isla en junio del 2003 por una
ola represiva contra opositores, rompe un acuerdo del bloque de no invitar a
sus fiestas en La Habana ni al gobierno ni a opositores.
''Ese acuerdo no funciona más. Eso es protocolo, no tiene mucha importancia,
aunque el gobierno cubano se la dé. En el fondo, lo que está es que la UE
quiere favorecer un diálogo y ver avances en derechos humanos. Pero no ha
habido ningún gesto, nada ha mejorado desde el 2003'', opinó otro
diplomático europeo.
La situación es aún más compleja dada la división en el seno de la UE en
torno a la política hacia Cuba. Francia fue el primero que quebró el
acuerdo, pues el pasado 14 de julio invitó al gobierno cubano a su fiesta
nacional y excluyó a la disidencia.
Mientras tanto, España, cuyo gobierno socialista impulsó el levantamiento de
las sanciones, celebrará el 12 de octubre su fiesta nacional y haría lo
mismo que Francia; en tanto que el 28 será el turno de la República Checa,
cuya posición coincide con la de Alemania.
''El régimen cubano quiere exportar su totalitarismo a otros países del
mundo, obligándolos a que nos excluyan'', dijo la dirigente opositora Marta
Beatriz Roque.
Dos elementos se suman a la tensión. La UE expresó la semana pasada su
preocupación por la situación de los presos políticos en huelga de hambre y
las Damas de Blanco, un grupo de esposas de disidentes encarcelados, están
nominadas al Premio Sajarov, que concede el Parlamente Europeo para promover
los derechos humanos.
Por su parte, el presidente de la ilegal Comisión de Derechos Humanos y
Reconciliación Nacional (CDHRN), Elizardo Sánchez, afirmó que ''la UE tiene
contrastes'' y ``hasta ahora no ha servido el levantamiento de las
sanciones''.
''La política de apaciguamiento que tienen algunos países con el régimen
totalitario en Cuba ha fracasado hasta ahora, porque la situación ha
empeorado: hay más prisioneros políticos, más intolerancia y, en general,
más represión'', afirmó Sánchez.

http://www.miami.com/mld/elnuevo/news/world/cuba/12817503.htm






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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:37:55 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Desmienten operativo de detención contra gays en Cuba


21 de marzo de 2005
Desmienten operativo de detención contra gays en Cuba
Las crecientes versiones sobre un gran operativo policial en La Habana que
apuntaban a encarcelar homosexuales fueron desmentidas por funcionarios del
Centro Nacional de Educación Sexual de Cuba
por Uomos.com
[***@uomos.com]

"En Cuba no hay persecusión contra los homosexuales, no la hay ahora y no la
habrá en el futuro" dijo a Uomos.com Julio Cesar González, coordinador del
Foro de masculinidad y diversidad sexual del Cenesex desde La Habana.

El Cenesex es el órgano estatal cubano encargado de temas relacionados con
la sexualidad y los estudios sobre diversidad y orientación de género. Al
ser parte del estado su labor tiene un impacto importante en el diseño de
políticas educativas.

Algunos medios de comunicación divulgaron que el operativo policial llamado
"Operación Dignidad" pretendía poner tras las rejas a "varones bien
vestidos" que tuvieran aspecto de homosexuales, prostituos o proxenetas. Los
detenidos son llevados al Combinado del Este, un centro de reclusión de La
Habana, en donde, según las mismas versiones, hay una sobrepoblación de
presos por esta causa.

Uomos.com pudo establecer que la "Operación Dignidad" sí está en marcha en
La Habana y que apunta a la búsqueda de proxenetas -personas que obligan a
otros a ejercer la prostitución-. "Operativos contra el proxenetismo existen
no sólo en Cuba, se dan en muchos países. Lo que es cierto es que esto nada
tiene que ver con la orientación sexual, se puede ser homosexual y cubano"
declaró Gonzalez.

"Es un problema ser homosexual en Cuba como lo es ser homosexual en otro
país, es una cosa cultural, de la familia, de los amigos, de la sociedad que
no lo acepta a uno" dijo a Uomos.com un jóven homosexual cubano radicado en
Buenos Aires y que prefirió conservar su nombre en reserva. "Incluso ahora
es más fácil en Argentina, pero cuando yo llegué a este país me tuve que
casar con una amiga para que me dieran la residencia, ella entendió mi
situación y me hizo el favor; es que las leyes no ayudan y por eso hay que
mentir, eso parece tranquilizar a la gente".

El código penal cubano no contempla la homosexualidad como delito por lo que
González hizo un llamado a los gays de ese país para que conozcan las leyes
e impidan que se comentan abusos. El proxenetismo es una práctica delictiva
en la mayoría de los países de América Latina.

http://anodis.com/nota/4056.asp






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Message: 17
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:36:45 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Fidel y el lavado de dinero: ¿otro encubrimiento?

Posted on Sat, Oct. 01, 2005


Fidel y el lavado de dinero: ¿otro encubrimiento?

ERNESTO F. BETANCOURT


El Granma Nacional Digital tiene en su portada una ventana denominada
''Soberanía monetaria: una nueva victoria de la revolución''. Esta ventana
se presenta como la respuesta a medidas de Estados Unidos, pero ninguna de
esas medidas envuelve operaciones en billetes de dólar. El verdadero
objetivo de la ventana es convertir en victoria propagandística el grave
revés financiero ocasionado por la Resolución IX, de fecha 22 de octubre de
2004, del Grupo de Acción Financiera Internacional (GAFI), ubicado en París,
que sí afecta los depósitos en billetes de dólar. Al día siguiente, el Banco
Central de Cuba emitió la Resolución 80, orientada exclusivamente a
operaciones con billetes de dólar. Soberanía monetaria, ¡cuernos! Fidel
convirtió este grave revés financiero en victoria propagandística gracias al
encubrimiento de la Tesorería de EEUU y el GAFI. Veamos.
El origen de la acción del GAFI es el escándalo del UBS de Suiza. De 1996 a
2003, UBS aceptó depósitos de Cuba por 3,900 millones en billetes de dólar,
usando indebidamente un fondo de canje de dólares viejos por nuevos del
Banco de la Reserva Federal de Nueva York. Además, UBS emitió informes
falsos a lo largo de siete años. El 10 de mayo de 2004, UBS pagó 100
millones de dólares de multa por esas violaciones de su contrato. Pero, por
el lavado de dinero, cero acción de la Tesorería de EEUU.
Los billetes de dólar son la moneda del lavado de dinero. Anualmente, se
generan 100 mil millones de dólares en billetes a resultas del tráfico de
drogas en Estados Unidos. Convertir esos billetes en activos negociables o
saldos bancarios es la esencia del negocio de lavado de dinero. De acuerdo
con un funcionario del FINCEN, Red de Control del Crimen Financiero de la
Tesorería de los EEUU, citado en The Economist de 26 de julio de 1997, los
traficantes de drogas pagan un descuento de entre 25 y 28 por ciento por
lograr esa conversión. El lavado de dinero del narcotráfico ofrecía a Fidel
posibles ingresos hasta de 25 a 28 mil millones de dólares anuales. Con sólo
captar un 10 por ciento del negocio, Fidel podía obtener unos 2,500 a 2,800
millones de dólares anuales de ingresos. No poder seguir depositando los
billetes de dólar es un serio revés financiero para Fidel, no una victoria
de la revolución.
Fidel ofrece condiciones excepcionales para el lavado de dinero, no tan sólo
a los traficantes de drogas, sino a políticos corrompidos. Su asesor en
montar todo este tinglado fue Robert Vesco, delincuente residente en Cuba
desde hace décadas. Cuba no es miembro del Fondo Monetario Internacional, ni
del GAFI, así que el titular de una cuenta recibe garantías de mayor
confidencialidad que en ningún banco internacional. La Oficina de
Coordinación y Apoyo del Comandante en Jefe maneja las transacciones.
Francisco Soberón, presidente del Banco Central, es cómplice en la
confidencialidad.
Por eso, en Cuba han lavado dinero desde Gadhaffi y Arafat hasta los Salinas
y los Kirchner, sin dejar fuera los rescates de secuestros de los montoneros
y el botín del robo del Wells Fargo por los macheteros puertorriqueños.
Además, naturalmente, de traficantes de drogas como Amado Carrillo Flores,
el fallecido Rey de los Cielos mexicano, a quien Fidel alojaba en una de sus
casas de protocolo. Su hermano, Vicente, fue quien entregó un pasaporte
mexicano falso al capo colombiano arrestado en Cuba el 2 de julio de 2004,
Luis H. Gómez Bustamante, alias Rasguño, acusado de introducir 10 mil
millones de dólares en cocaína en EEUU. Hubo ilusos en EEUU que esperaban
que Fidel les entregaría a Rasguño. Olvídense. Son socios. Los informes
inflados de remesas de exiliados de la CEPAL y el BID ayudaban a encubrir el
lavado de dinero.
¿Y del escándalo de la UBS? Silencio de la Tesorería americana.
El 23 de julio de 2004 Juan Carlos Zárate, a la sazón subsecretario en la
Tesorería para seguir el crimen financiero, anunció en El Nuevo Herald que
se había iniciado una investigación por la Fiscalía del Distrito Sureste de
Nueva York. Hasta la fecha, nada. El 29 de octubre de 2004, la congresista
Ileana Ros-Lehtinen pasó a John Snow, secretario del Tesoro, una lista de
ocho bancos internacionales en donde Castro depositaba billetes de dólar,
siguiendo la misma modalidad de UBS. Tampoco ha habido acción alguna a la
fecha. Y en el GAFI, la Resolución IX cerró la vía usada por Cuba para lavar
dinero del narcotráfico, pero Cuba no se menciona entre los países
incumplidores. ¿Por qué?
O sea, tanto la Tesorería de EEUU, como el GAFI, actuaron efectivamente
contra el lavado de dinero de Fidel, pero en silencio, dejándolo libre para
hacer su propaganda.

http://www.miami.com/mld/elnuevo/news/opinion/12786499.htm






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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:42:37 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Critics say Che Guevara film not welcome in Hispanic festival

Posted on Tue, Oct. 04, 2005


Critics say Che Guevara film not welcome in Hispanic festival

BY SCOTT WYMAN
South Florida Sun-Sentinel

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. - (KRT) - Plans to show a critically acclaimed movie
about Cuban revolutionary Che Guevara's youth as part of Hispanic Heritage
Month have placed Broward County's library system under siege, facing
charges of both insensitivity and censorship.
"The Motorcycle Diaries" was supposed to air Monday evening as part of the
heritage festival's lineup that also includes a puppet show of Don Quixote,
flamenco dancing and the movie "Mask of Zorro." After a first attack by
Hispanic activists who say Guevara killed and tortured their friends and
family, the library is now under fire from civil libertarians for deciding
to yank the film.
It's the latest free speech controversy to face the county. A painting of
President Bush being sodomized over an oil barrel was removed from prominent
display at a county-funded exhibit of controversial art this year, and a
library lecture series by the Council on American-Islamic Relations prompted
complaints from a Jewish group.
Library director Bob Cannon defends his actions as appropriate, given the
strong sentiments aroused by Guevara. He has rescheduled the movie to early
November so it no longer is part of Hispanic Heritage Month.
"In my mind, this isn't censorship," Cannon said Tuesday. "The film is
readily available, we are still showing it. But this is a celebration of
Hispanic culture, and some felt it was insensitive to show the film since it
shows him in a positive light."
"Valentin," a film about a young boy who lives with his grandmother in
Argentina, was shown in its place. "The Motorcycle Diaries" will now be
played on Nov. 7.
"The Motorcycle Diaries," produced by Robert Redford, is based on diaries
Guevara wrote during a 1952 road trip across South America, a journey that
influenced him to seek revolutionary change across the region. It ends
before he unites with Fidel Castro to take over Cuba.
The movie was nominated this year for an Academy Award for best foreign film
and won honors internationally. It drew no opposition when it hit theaters
in 2004.
On Monday night, when the movie was supposed to be shown at the Pembroke
Pines library, about 20 people concerned about its removal protested
outside. They accused the library of capitulating to anti-Castro
conservatives in South Florida's Hispanic community.
"Basically, the library is saying that if you put enough pressure on us,
we'll censor," said Zeina Salam of the Broward chapter of the American Civil
Liberties Union. "If the library is not the bastion of free speech, what
is?"
Cannon said a program committee comprised mainly of Hispanic librarians at
Southwest Regional selected the movie to be shown as part of the festival.
Library guidelines call for administrators to create a diverse program
presenting a multitude of views for such events.
Controversy erupted when the movie's showing was mentioned on a talk radio
show. Then, library administrators and Diana Wasserman-Rubin, the county
commission's sole Hispanic member, began receiving dozens of calls and
e-mails in opposition.
Wasserman-Rubin said she talked to Cannon and urged him to take action. She
said that although she thought "The Motorcycle Diaries" was a good movie and
appropriate to show at some time, she understood the concerns about it being
part of a celebration of Hispanic heritage.
"It is disrespectful to show a movie about this man who caused so much
misery in Cuba during Hispanic Heritage Month," Wasserman-Rubin said.
Cannon said the library system's monthly programming has never attracted
such controversy, so there was little in the way of protocol to follow. The
library is also celebrating science fiction writer Jules Verne this fall and
is showing the movies "Around the World in 80 Days" and "Twenty Thousand
Leagues Under the Sea."
He said he tried to strike a compromise between sensitivity and free speech
by agreeing to air "The Motorcycle Diaries" later. Cannon said that decision
has not pleased all of the original critics and that he's received calls
from those who dislike Guevara saying they will picket the new showing.
Some Hispanic leaders, like Pembroke Pines City Commissioner Angelo
Castillo, said they are pleased with the decision to reschedule the movie
and reject arguments that the library is engaging in censorship. Castillo
said a movie about the life of Che Guevara had no place in a Hispanic
Heritage festival.
"If they put out a movie depicting the life of Adolf Hitler before he came
to power in Germany, how well would that have gone over during Holocaust
Survivors Week?" Castillo asked. "The guy was a terrorist who was
responsible for the deaths of a lot of people."
---
© 2005 South Florida Sun-Sentinel.

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/nation/12817416.htm






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Message: 19
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:43:20 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Cuban officials boycott German unification reception


Mercosur
Wednesday, 05 October

Cuban officials boycott German unification reception

Cuban officials boycotted a cocktail party at the German Embassy in Havana
to protest a parallel reception where regime opponents were invited.
The event at the embassy was to mark the 15th anniversary of German
reunification, October 3, 1990.
Ambassador Hans-Ulrich Lunscken's decision to invite members of Cuba's
internal opposition "has not pleased the Cuban government, which was
expressed by not attending the cocktail party organized at the embassy" said
a European diplomat.
Ambassador Lunscken said the reunification of his country was made possible
by the failure and collapse of the Communist regime in East Germany and by
the existence of a peaceful opposition in that side of the then-divided
nation.
The reception included the screening of the film "Goodbye Lenin" which
depicts the efforts of a young man from East Germany who wants to protect
her mother that for years was in coma, from the shock of a united Germany
following the fall of the Berlin Wall.
The German Embassy is the first EU mission in Havana to invite dissidents to
a national-day celebration since last January when the 25-member European
Union suspended political sanctions imposed on Cuba following the Fidel
Castro regime jailing of 75 peaceful opponents in spring 2003.
At the time punitive measures were set aside and the EU left it to each
member whether to continue inviting Cuban dissidents to events in embassies.

http://www.mercopress.com/Detalle.asp?NUM=6542






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Message: 20
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 16:27:53 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Solana dice que sería "absurdo" tener Embajadas en Cuba y pretender
que no se relacionen con el Gobierno de Castro

Miércoles 5 de octubre, 8:44 AM
Cuba.-Solana dice que sería "absurdo" tener Embajadas en Cuba y pretender
que no se relacionen con el Gobierno de Castro


El alto representante para la Política Exterior y la Seguridad Común de la
Unión Europea (PESC), Javier Solana, confía en que haya una solución "seria"
para la ya llamada "guerra del canapé" entre Cuba y la UE, polémica que ha
resurgido después de que la Embajada alemana en la Habana decidiera invitar
a disidentes y responsables gubernamentales por separado el día de la Unidad
Alemana.

También espera que las autoridades cubanas "entren en razón" y asuman la
posición de la Unión Europea. En todo caso, Solana quiso dejar claro hoy que
las Embajadas "están para servir de representaciones internacionales ante el
Gobierno" cubano y que sería "un poco absurdo" tener Embajadas que no
mantengan relación con el Gobierno frente al que están representados los
embajadores.

"Para eso es mejor cerrar las Embajadas y retirar a los embajadores",
resaltó Solana ante la Comisión de Asuntos Exteriores del Parlamento
Europeo. En su opinión, si se cuenta con representación en La Habana es para
tener relaciones con el Gobierno cubano.

"Ya que tenemos representaciones allí, será para tener relaciones con el
Gobierno, ya sea para criticar ya sea para cooperar o para lo que sea. Es
como yo lo veo", agregó al ser preguntado al respecto por los eurodiputados
españoles José Ignacio Salafranca (PPE) y Carlos Carnero (PSE).


http://ar.news.yahoo.com/051005/11/l4px.html






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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:50:27 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: LIFE AFTER FIDEL


LIFE AFTER FIDEL

Cuba's Foreign Minister, Felipe Pérez Roque,
on the U.S. embargo, Castro's succession,
the OAS, Hugo Chavez and human rights.


By Jim Creskey
Embassy Magazine
Canada
Infosearch:
José F. Sánchez
Bureau Chief
E.U.
Research Dept.
La Nueva Cuba
October 5, 2005

"The blockade of Cuba," says Felipe Pérez Roque, Cuba's Foreign Minister, is
the longest in history -- 45 years by 10 successive U.S. presidents. But, he
admits, its end would pose a major challenge for Cuba and its leadership.
Mr. Pérez, who was in Ottawa this week to meet with Canadian ministers
Pierre Pettigrew, Jim Peterson and Aileen Carroll, spoke about the US
embargo and other hemispheric topics in an interview with Embassy.
And yet the eventual lifting of the US embargo, a position supported by
Canada at the UN, will have enormous consequences on the island nation which
has known little else for generations.
"The lifting of the blockade would be a major challenge, but there is no
question that we want it to be lifted ­ the opportunities are greater than
the challenges, " says Mr. Pérez
Part of the challenge is that seven out of ten Cubans have never know
anything different. Even Mr. Pérez, who was born in 1965 and became one the
world's youngest foreign ministers in 1999, has never experienced life in a
Cuba without a US embargo.. The small island (the size of Newfoundland) on
Florida's doorstep could expect to be awash in a massive flow of American
tourists, goods and trade that would follow the embargo's end. The blockade
as the Cubans call it -- in the U.S. it is the "economic embargo" -- was
repeatedly condemned by Pope John Paul II in his 1998 visit to Cuba. The
only pope to ever visit Cuba, the Cold War Communist nemesis criticized the
Castro regime on human rights.
"Liberation cannot be reduced to its social and political aspects, but
rather reaches its fullness in the exercise of conscience, the basis and
foundation of all human rights," said the late pontiff, saving a stinging
condemnation of the U.S. blockade as "an indiscriminate measure that hurt
Cuba's poor" for his parting words at José Marti airport.
Mr. Pérez believes that within five years of the embargo's end, the number
of Americans visiting Cuba annually would rise to 5 million -- more than 10
times the number of Canadians (Cuba's biggest source of tourists) who
visited Cuba last year.
"There is no doubt that [lifting the embargo] would be a major challenge. It
would test our resolve to preserve our culture, our language, our
traditions."
The minister's arrival in Canada coincides with 60 years of diplomatic
relations and particularly celebrates the days since 1959 -- the start of
the Cuban revolution. Only Canada and Mexico have maintained continuous
diplomatic relations with Cuba, and Mr. Pérez says he is grateful for
Canada's enduring friendship particularly in the face of constant pressure
from Washington to treat Cuba differently.
"Next January is the 30th anniversary of Pierre Trudeau's visit to Cuba,"
says Mr. Pérez. It was former prime minister Trudeau's warmth for
revolutionary Cuba that played a big role in keeping Canada open minded
about the little Caribbean country that long drove Washington crazy.
Something good for Cuba even came out of Pierre Trudeau's funeral. During
the Oct. 2000 meeting of Fidel Castro and former U.S. President Jimmy Carter
in Montreal at Mr. Trudeau's funeral, a final posthumous opportunity came up
for Mr. Trudeau to help broker a friendly gesture for Cuba. That time it was
the idea that that Cuba was developing biological weapons, a concept that
Mr. Pérez calls "that dirty campaign" advanced by former U.S. undersecretary
John Bolton. It was, he says, "A provocation, a campaign that amounted to a
gross sham." Most observers saw it as a trial balloon.
Jimmy Carter agreed. He told Fidel Castro that he would visit Cuba and speak
out against the accusations, but only if he were allowed to speak openly on
human rights and religious freedoms.
Cuba has a sizable genetic engineering and pharmaceuticals industry,
producing, according to Mr. Pérez, 80 per cent of the vaccines used
domestically for diseases like hepatitis, tetanus and meningitis. Mr.
Carter, along with most of the world, was convinced, that Cuba pharma-labs
were far from being a source of bioterrorism.
"President Carter emphatically debunked those accusations," said Mr. Pérez.
And the trial balloon from Washington evaporated almost as quickly as it was
released. Today, Cuba's pharmaceutical industry is one of the reasons Mr.
Pérez hopes to meet with Canadian pharmaceutical executives when he goes to
Toronto this week where he will be speaking at the Economic Club of Toronto.
Fidel Castro
When you have a national leader who has been in power through 10 U.S.
presidential administrations and who still firmly holds power at age 79, the
subject of succession is always lurking behind the next calendar page.
"Fidel's absence from Cuba [would be] a vacuum that can not be replaced,"
says Mr. Pérez, "but it is a mistake to think that the Cuban revolution is
owed to only one man. Our country will outlive Fidel's passing. There is a
constitutional mechanism, but most importantly there is the support of most
of the people." He says that Havana watchers shouldn't be too quick to set
up a Fidel vigil: "He is a healthy 79." But they could rightfully expect
first vice-president Raul Castro to achieve prominence not because of his
last name, but because he was one of the revolution's founders.
Mr. Pérez points out that the Bush administration has its own announced plan
for "The Assistance of Free Cuba" which is headed by former Republican
congressional aide Caleb McCarry. According to most reports, the plan would
swing into action after Mr. Castro's demise with a number of aid, trade and
political programs.
"It is intended to turn Cuba back into a colony," says Mr. Pérez who has
some support in a recent statement from former American diplomat Wayne
Smith. Mr. Smith was Chief of Mission at the U.S. Interests Section in
Havana during the Reagan administration and was recognized as the Department
of State's leading expert on Cuba. This week he told the Associated Press
that the plan was " a blatant intervention in the internal affairs of
another state."
The U.S. State Department's website quotes from a report on the plan:
"President Bush formed the U.S. Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba to
explore ways we can help hasten and ease Cuba's democratic transition. As
this report shows, the United States seeks to cooperate with neighbors in
the hemisphere and nations across the globe to help Cubans prepare for
democratic change."
Cuba and the OAS
Cuba was kicked out of the Organization of American States (OAS) in 1962 by
a motion strongly promoted by the United States. Mr. Pérez says he doesn't
wish to see Cuba rejoin the organization because "it is U.S.-dominated," but
that he respects Canada's position as a member, which it has been since
1990.
"We dream about a Latin American and Caribbean organization in which we
could be a key player," says Mr. Pérez, " not an organization that is
dictated by the U.S. And we do this not because we have a grudge with the
people of the U.S."
Cuba's foreign minister does believe that much US. policy towards Cuba is
propelled by domestic politics, but he doesn't believe the majority of the
large Cuban community in Miami is at the heart of it.
"It is pressure from 40 rich Cuban families," he says and adds there is
always political pressure from American companies that lost their Cuban
interest in the revolution.
"Most Cubans in Florida are economic immigrants," he says, not exiles. "One
in eight Cubans in the United States have gone back to Cuba on vacation. Who
ever heard of a political exile going back to his home country on
vacation!?"
Hugo Chavez and Human Rights
The bright spot in the hemisphere for Mr. Pérez's Cuba has been Caracas.
President Hugo Chavez's Venezuela has, while thumbing its nose at
Washington, become a close friend to Castro. Today, subsidized Venezuelan
oil flows to Cuba in exchange for Cuban doctors and medical technicians,
20,000 of whom have gone to Venezuela to offer health services to the
country's poor, says Mr. Pérez. With support from Mr. Chavez's "Bolivarian
Revolution," Mr. Pérez says Cuba and Venezuela will be able to do some great
things, including "Mision Milagro" (The Miracle Mission), a plan to return
the eyesight of tens of thousands of poor Latin Americans who are blind from
cataracts.
Canada has a policy of praising Cuba for its exceptional advances in public
health and its educational record, achievements that are not common in the
Caribbean or Latin America. But Canada is also a regular critic of human
rights abuses in Cuba, especially the censorship and control of the media
and the imprisonment of hundreds of dissidents
"It is hard to compare the freedoms of a country like Canada with the
different reality of Cuba," says Mr. Pérez. He describes Cuba as a country
under siege that must survive despite powerful pressure from the U.S. He
admits there are, what Michael Ignatieff would call "necessary evils to
protect a greater good."
But, he says, it could be much worse (as in other Latin American countries).
"There are no disappeared persons, no mothers of the Plaza de Mayo
[searching for their government-kidnapped children]. There is no
extrajudicial murder. And there is no torture in Cuba -- if you do not
include the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo."
He admits that the Cuban press ("Owned by the Cuban people") is not free to
support Washington's aims, which is cold comfort for any Cuban journalist
unlucky enough to get on the wrong side of the government. But he suggests
that it may not be less free than many corporately owned North American
media outlets that have their own business or political agenda.
For Felipe Pérez, Cuba is still a country at war and the economic embargo is
"an act of war," solely supported by Cuba's super-power neighbour. But, says
the foreign minister, all this could rapidly change with the end of the
blockade.
No Helms-Burton Here
At the end of a day of meetings Tuesday with Canadians ministers and MPs,
Cuban Foreign Minister Felipe Pérez Roque told Parliamentary reporters he
was looking for ways to expand Cuba's purchasing power in Canada. Presently,
most Cuban purchases in Canada are made in cash, but Mr. Perez said that the
creation of insurance coverage and export credits could push Canadian sales
to Cuba from eight to 20 per cent
Asked about the difficulty in getting interviews with Canadian companies
doing business in Cuba because of their fear of reprisal from the U.S.
government, the minister reminded his audience that enforcement of the
Helms-Burton Act was illegal in Canada. But he said he talked with Foreign
Minister Pierre Pettigrew about ways to protect Canadian companies from
"U.S. persecution." He pointed to a $450 million (US) investment in Cuban
nickel by the Toronto-based Sherritt International Corporation as a sign
that Canadian investment was continuing to increase in a Cuban economy that
was growing at the rate of seven per cent a year. ­Jim Creskey

http://www.lanuevacuba.com/nuevacuba/notic-05-10-517.htm






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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:51:06 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Preocupa el aumento de presos políticos en Cuba


Preocupa el aumento de presos políticos en Cuba

Denunciaron que existe un ''visible" incremento de la represión por parte
del régimen castrista. Y advirtieron que la situación política interna va a
empeorar en la isla

Infoabe, Argentina, 5 de octubre de 2005.

La cantidad de presos políticos en Cuba aumentó a 30 desde junio pasado,
donde llegaban a más de 300.

El presidente de la Comisión Cubana de Derechos Humanos y Reconciliación
Nacional (CCDHRN), Elizardo Sánchez, dijo a AFP que "como parte de las
detenciones en julio hay unos 30 nuevos presos políticos''

En julio pasado la CCDHRN anunció que el número de presos políticos en Cuba
pasó de 294 a 306 en los últimos seis meses y existe un ''visible aumento de
la represión policial y administrativa'' contra varios sectores de la
sociedad.

Sánchez consideró que ''hay un aumento de presos políticos y van a seguir
aumentando'', pues existe '"una represión a ciegas, cualquiera que diga algo
puede ser detenido y llevado preso''.

''El descontento popular sigue aumentando día a día de manera indetenible y
el gobierno sabe esto muy bien'', dijo Sánchez, quien consideró que "las
cosas están mal y parece que van a empeorar''.

''La situación política interna va a empeorar porque va a aumentar la
represión'', remarcó.



http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y05/oct05/05o6.htm






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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:52:09 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Saddam Hussein en la prensa cubana


POLITICA
Saddam Hussein en la prensa cubana

Tania Díaz Castro

LA HABANA, Cuba - Octubre (www.cubanet.org) - En una crónica que escribí en
días pasados me refería al hecho de que la prensa oficialista de Cuba (la
única autorizada por Fidel Castro) no ha informado al pueblo sobre los
crímenes perpetrados por Saddam Hussein durante sus años de tiranía. Hoy, me
resulta imposible no abordar otra vez el tema, no sólo porque encontré
casualmente en mi viejo archivo un recorte de prensa impresionante, sino
porque, además, el 29 de septiembre el periódico Juventud Rebelde dedicó una
página a denunciar cómo la enciclopedia Encarta 2005 (a la que no tiene
acceso el pueblo cubano) tergiversa la verdad de Irak.

El recorte que menciono pertenece a un ejemplar del diario Granma del jueves
6 de septiembre de 1990, cuando se avecinaba la Guerra del Golfo. El
titular, a toda página, dice: ANUNCIA IRAK QUE CUENTA CON 5 MILLONES DE
VOLUNTARIOS. La información comienza diciendo que "el presidente iraquí,
Saddam Hussein, anunció hoy, en un discurso a los pueblos iraquí y árabes,
que cuenta ya con un ejército de cinco millones de voluntarios dispuestos al
sacrificio para enfrentarse a los Estados Unidos y sus aliados".

Continúa diciendo que el número de voluntarios aumenta cada día, y que se
espera alcance los doce millones. La semejanza de Saddam con Adolfo Hitler
es pura coincidencia. No hay dudas de que este cruel y demente tirano
pretendía una tercera guerra mundial, y que para lograrlo llamó a todos los
árabes creyentes para que se lanzaran a una guerra contra los poderes
injustos. Por último, expresó que "la nación árabe y musulmana ha sido la
elegida por Dios para ello".

Sin embargo, el paladín de la diabólica guerra santa resultó un gran cobarde
cuando terminaron sus días de libertad. Escondido en un hoyo, muerto de
miedo, pidió que no lo mataran cuando fue descubierto.

Como José Stalin, Adolfo Hitler y muchos otros dictadores, se valió del
terror para gobernar, librándose de quienes podían representar una amenaza
para él por medio de las ejecuciones (que se cuentan por miles), mientras
cientos de iraquíes bien pagados cuidaban sus espaldas y Saddam construía
decenas de palacios a un costo de millones de dólares para el disfrute de él
y su familia.

Este es el hombre que la prensa oficialista cubana apoya a discreción. Es
por eso que el mencionado artículo criticó la libertad de Irak, según
Encarta, y sobrepasa los límites del absurdo. Acusa a la enciclopedia de
inexactitudes y omisiones respecto a lo concerniente a Saddam Hussein.

La lectura de este artículo, escrito por Joel Mayor Lorán, me produjo dolor
de estómago. Es el colmo que en la prensa oficialista cubana se hable de
descuidos, tergiversaciones, exclusiones y hasta silencios en Encarta.

Es muy fácil ver la paja en el ojo ajeno. Saddam Hussein, señores, no tiene
defensa. Quienes la hacen son y piensan como él.



http://cubanet.org/CNews/y05/oct05/06a9.htm






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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:52:41 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Vía crucis por una carta a Fidel Castro


REPRESION
Vía crucis por una carta a Fidel Castro

Virgilio Delat La O, APLO

PALMA SORIANO, Cuba - 4 de octubre (www.cubanet.org) - El pasado 19 de
septiembre, temiendo por la vida de su hermano, José Daniel Ferrer, quien se
encontraba en huelga de hambre en la prisión de Kilo 8 en Camagüey, Ana
Belkis Ferrer y su esposo se dirigieron al Consejo de Estado a entregar una
carta para el propio Fidel Castro, haciéndolo responsable por los abusos
contra los prisioneros y por lo que pudiera pasar con José Daniel.

Belkis vive en Palmarito, un pequeño pueblito de la provincia de Santiago de
Cuba, a unos 800 kilómetros de la capital, donde radica el Consejo de
Estado. A pesar de las dificultades con el transporte, que se encuentra
prácticamente paralizado, pudieron llegar a las oficinas de Atención a la
Población de dicho Consejo, donde fue atendida por un funcionario que se dio
a conocer como René Montes de Oca, quien después de recoger la carta que
llevaba le informó que se había comunicado con la Dirección Nacional de
Cárceles y Prisiones y que José Daniel recibiría la atención médica
requerida, pero que se recordara que él era un preso más y que debía
someterse a las normas y disciplina de la prisión.

Cuenta Bellkis Ferrer que le expusieron todas las razones por las que su
hermano se había declarado en huelga de hambre, que las cartas anteriores
dirigidas al señor Fidel Castro, la primera hace un año y la segunda hace
cuatro meses, imponiéndolo de los abusos y de los tratos cruelos y
degradantes a que estaban siendo sometidos los presos políticos y que hasta
la fecha no se había recibido respuesta alguna. El funcionario dijo- según
Belkis- que las quejas estaban en proceso de investigación, que retornaran a
su provincia de origen y que recibirían notificación.

"Cuando íbamos atravesando la Plaza de la Revolución", continuó Ana Belkis,
"un auto marca Lada casi se nos viene encima; se bajaron del auto tres
individuos vestidos de civil que se identificaron de inmediato como policías
y de igual forma nos exigieron nuestros carnet de identidad. Luego llamaron
por teléfono y rápidamente se montó un operativo policial, dos carros
patrullas y una moto, todos procedían del sótano del Consejo de Estado. Bajo
una intensa lluvia nos introdujeron en uno de los carros y nos trasladaron
para la Estación de policía de Zapata y C".

Añadió Ana Belkis: "A mí me pusieron en un calabozo inmundo en un sótano,
sin agua ni luz en ningún momento y acompañada por otras tres mujeres y un
sinnúmero de cucarachas, en un espacio sumamente reducido. A mi esposo lo
pusieron en un calabozo con 12 detenidos más, por lo que su situación era
peor".

"Nuestras amistades en La Habana se alarmaron, y al ver que no regresábamos
pusieron sobre aviso a nuestros familiares en Oriente. Mi madre, Amelia
Garcías Vega, según supimos después, ante la embarazosa situación decidió
plantarse en la puerta de la sede del Comité Provincial del Partido
Comunista en Santiago de Cuba, con mis tres sobrinos, una de 7 años, uno de
2 y una bebita de 4 meses, junto a Belkis Cantillo Ramírez, esposa de José
Daniel.

"Al llegar al lugar fueron detenidas y llevadas a el Departamento de
Enfrentamiento de la policía polaca en el Reparto Vista Alegre, donde fueron
amenazadas de tomar represalias contra mí, que también podía ser
encarcelada. Ante la actitud firme de mi madre y mi cuñada, de seguir
adelante sea como sea, en defensa de sus hijos y su esposo, en el caso de
Belkis decidieron enviarlas para la terminal de ómnibus para que se
embarcaran hacia Palmarito.

"Mientras tanto, nosotros en La Habana fuimos liberados el día 20 al
anochecer. Nos abrieron los calabozos y nos dijeron que teníamos que
retirarnos, que venía un ciclón y no podían mantenernos allí. Que teníamos
que firmar un acta de advertencia antes de irnos. Cuando le inquirimos el
por qué, nos respondieron que por inmigrantes ilegales. A lo que le
respondí: '¿Inmigrantes ilegales en nuestro país? Eso es el colmo, ilegales
son ustedes', y nos marchamos".

Así terminó un capítulo más de la odisea de esta familia cubana, mientras en
Kilo 8, en Camagüey, José Daniel después de concluir 16 días en huelga de
hambre, sigue en una posición contestataria, no acepta la comida del penal,
sólo se mantiene con los alimentos que posee en su jaba y riega a diario
proclamas con el texto: Cara A (en grande) "ABAJO FIDEL". Cara B "Lo que la
dictadura de Fidel Castro ha traído al pueblo cubano, hambre, miseria,
esclavitud, falta de todo, transporte, medicina, viviendas, etc.", según
informó en una llamada telefónica, que finalmente fue interrumpida por su
reeducador.



http://cubanet.org/CNews/y05/oct05/06a8.htm

Message: 25
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:51:39 +0200
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Carta de Félix Navarro al teniente coronel Chediak Pérez


Carta de Félix Navarro al teniente coronel Chediak Pérez

Por Félix Navarro Rodríguez. Publicado por el Directorio Demócratico Cubano,
4 de octubre de 2005.

Félix Navarro Rodríguez se encuentra en huelga de hambre desde el 13 de
septiembre. Esta carta fue redactada desde la Prisión Combinado de
Guantánamo.

Prisión Combinado de Guantánamo.
Miércoles 28 de septiembre del 2005.

Al Teniente Coronel Jorge Chediak Pérez

De Félix Navarro Rodríguez, Celda solitaria de castigo número 48
Referencia: Protesta.

Le aseguro que no encontrará vestigio de súplica en estas líneas. Mi moral
hoy es más alta de la mostrada el miércoles 21 donde se encontraba el
supuesto Mayor Miguel de la Dirección de Prisiones, como él mismo respondió.

Si gasto algo de mi precioso tiempo y de mi tinta con Vd., responde al
reclamo para que asuma una postura honesta, de principios altamente apegados
a la verdad por sus encuentros con Sonia y Sahilí, mi esposa e hija
respectivamente, han adolecido de ello.

No se da cuenta Vd. que la verdad aflora aunque traten de sepultarla en el
fondo de una cueva, como sentenciara el Apóstol de nuestra independencia.

¿Por qué miente Vd. tratando de manipular a la familia y sacarlo a Vd. a
flote en este suceso que casi toca las puertas del crimen? Martí también
dijo: "Contemplar un crimen pasivamente es como haberlo cometido". Vd. no
sólo lo contempla sino que lo han dejado como autor principal de su
consumación. ¿Cree que no hay leyes en el mundo que se oponen a ello y hacen
justicia contra los autores de tan bárbaro proceder?

Conmigo se están violando todas las convenciones y acuerdos internacionales
de la salud, de las convenciones de la organización médica mundial, las
leyes internacionales carcelarias, las leyes internacionales sobre el preso
que se encuentra en huelga de hambre, la Convención de Ginebra, lo planteado
por la Cruz Roja Internacional, y lo más curioso que todos estos convenios
han sido firmados por el gobierno cubano.

De seguro moriré, pero no negociaré mi dignidad, Vd. dice lo mismo, yo seré
un mártir y en ese momento Vd. se graduará de asesino. No estamos en la
década de 1970, cuando similares de Vd. dejaron morir a Pedro Luís Boitel.
Realmente le confieso que siento por Vd. lástima, al ser reo de su propia
investidura y no analizar las cosas que he aportado sobre mi huelga, con el
cerebro que le dio la madre natura y la preparación que ha logrado a través
de los años.

Reiterándole que no le suplico nada para mi caso, reclamo que se apegue a la
verdad cuando hable con mi familia y no distorsione, que no somos
analfabetos ni abandonados. Seguiremos en pie de lucha contra la injusticia
y el secuestro de las leyes y la verdad.

Félix Navarro Rodríguez
Presidente del Partido por la Democracia Pedro Luis Boitel en Matanzas.
Celda solitaria de castigo número 48
Hora 3 p.m. aproximadamente.
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y05/oct05/05o5.htm
--
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.html
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ForFreedomandJustice/
"Live-Free-or-Die" "...one nation UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST"
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm


http://www.memesolis.com/

http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html




"tony fernandez" <***@webtv.net> a �crit dans le message de news:11523-43459E82-***@storefull-3336.bay.webtv.net...
The U.S. doesn't give a hoot about political freedom or any other kind
of freedom. They have supported and continue to support the most
repressive governments in the world Pakistan, Egypt , Saudi arabia, and
Israel.
They don't care what the government does as long as they serve the
American interest.
In Haiti the U.S. supports an antidemocratic government that shoots
people in soccer stadiums in public view just like they supported the
murderous oligarchy in El Salvador. All the time giving lip serves to
human rights. Actions speak louder then words. The U.S. is today
engaged in a murderous campaign to subjugate the people of IRAQ and
tomorrow the world.
Has the world learned nothing that appeasement will not save them
from the American Blitzkieg?
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