Discussion:
Venezuela polling machines owned by Chavez and were predicted vulnerable
(too old to reply)
x
2004-08-18 18:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Footnotes 1 and 2 show what I have found so far, these machines are
different from those used in Florida they seem to be made and programmed
in Florida by a Venezuelan firm. The Venezuelan goverment owns (or until
recently did own) large numbers of shares the company that makes the
machines (footnote 3). All reports in footnotes are dated prior to
Venezuelan election.

Larry


footnote 1 this is from=A0 CNN side and taken from AP cable and apparently
withdraw, but is still
available in catched formed
at:http://66.102.7.104/search?q=3Dcache:zb6hiV2DthIJ:www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/=
07/13/venezuela.e.vo
ting.ap/+%22voting+machines%22+florida+sales+Venezuela&hl=3Den


Venezuela e-voting furor stirs memory of 2000 glitches

Tuesday, July 13, 2004 Posted: 10:16 AM EDT (1416 GMT)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
story.evoting.ballot.ap.jpg
Victor Hernandez casts his mock ballot after testing a model of a
touchscreen voting machine made by Smartmatic.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- Despite an electronic voting fiasco in 2000 and
the furor over e-voting in the United States, Venezuela is using untested
touchscreen computers for its recall referendum on Hugo Chavez's
presidency.

Critics fear touchscreen voting machines in the August 15 vote could fail
spectacularly, exacerbating a crisis over Chavez's rule that has polarized
the world's No. 5 oil exporter and killed dozens in sporadic political
violence.

The touchscreen machines on which a third of the U.S. electorate will vote
in November are dangerously vulnerable to hackers, rigging and mechanical
failure, computer scientists generally agree.

That didn't deter the Chavez-dominated Venezuelan Elections Council from
choosing Smartmatic Corp., a little-known Boca Raton, Florida-based
company, to provide similar technology -- albeit with a printed record of
each vote -- for the referendum.

Smartmatic has never tested its machines in an election. And there has
been no independent analysis or certification of its touchscreen system,
although the council says the system will be audited before the vote.

In the United States, touchscreen computers are partly an attempt to
eliminate hanging chads and other problems associated with the disputed
U.S. presidential election results in Florida in 2000. Chavez often cites
the Florida debacle to question George W. Bush's presidential credentials.

Yet in Venezuela, an electronic voting system produced that very same year
what is widely known as the "mega-flop."

The biggest election in Venezuela's history was supposed to take place on
May 28, 2000. More than 6,000 public offices were up for grabs, and
Chavez, elected in 1998, was seeking re-election.

But two days before the vote, the Supreme Court postponed the election
because of problems with computer software needed to tabulate votes and
register more than 36,000 candidates. It was humiliating for election
officials who had insisted things were going smoothly.
New automated system

The Omaha, Nebraska-based software provider, Election Systems & Software,
blamed constant changes by election authorities in posting thousands of
candidates.

E-voting did take place in July 2000 with few problems. But the
postponement prompted authorities to reject any new deal with ES&S and to
retire machines from the Spanish company Indra.

This year, a pro-Chavez majority on the five-member elections council
voted to sign a $91 million contract with Smartmatic and its two partners,
Venezuelan software company Bitza Corp., and CANTV, Venezuela's publicly
held telephone company.

Council president Francisco Carrasquero said Smartmatic won based on three
factors: security, cost, and technology transfer.

In the past Venezuela depended on Indra or other foreign firms to run its
elections, Carrasquero said, while Smartmatic is providing Venezuela
licenses for its systems.
vert.evoting.ap.jpg
The Smartmatic machines have never been tested in an election.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0

"Now it's in the council's hands, and we'll have autonomy designing
automated elections," he said.

Carrasquero also argued that e-voting is the best way to avoid
ballot-stuffing he said marred elections before Chavez came to power.

The Smartmatic deal includes 20,000 touchscreen voting machines and plans
to run regional elections in September. Another $24 million contract for
the referendum is in the works.

Two elections council members abstained from the Smartmatic vote. One of
them, Ezequiel Zamora, declared: "I thought a process as simple as a
referendum should be done manually. An untried system is always going to
create doubt."
Paper trail

Chavez, whose term runs to 2007, can be recalled if the opposition gets
more votes than the nearly 3.8 million he received in 2000. Elections
would be held within 30 days to choose someone to serve out his term.

Chavez says the recall is an effort by a corrupt Venezuelan elite, backed
by Washington, to end his leftist revolution on behalf of the poor.
Venezuela's opposition accuses Chavez of gradually imposing an
authoritarian regime.

Opponents initially objected to the e-voting plans, then asked for a
simultaneous audit using a small sampling of the machines.

"Smartmatic is a company that hasn't tested its system anywhere in the
world -- and it's going to test it here in Venezuela in a process as
important as the recall referendum," complained Luis Planas, a member of
the opposition COPEI party.

Suspicion deepened after The Miami Herald reported in May that a
Venezuelan state industrial development fund had invested in Bitza, whose
role is to integrate manual votes into the electronic system. Some 10
percent of voters, mostly in rural areas, will cast manual ballots.

Bitza quickly announced it would buy back the government's 28 percent
stake.

Smartmatic President Antonio Mugica, who also co-founded Bitza, insists
his firm is apolitical, and he brushed aside concerns about Smartmatic's
inexperience.

"There is no voting system more secure than this one," Mugica boasted,
tapping a machine's screen during a demonstration in his sleekly furnished
Caracas office.

A square piece of paper popped out of the computer, a physical record of
his vote. That, Mugica insists, is the system's primary safeguard against
fraud: A paper trail that allows for a recount of any contested election.

Voters must deposit the slip into a ballot box before they can retrieve
their IDs from polling officials.

The paper trail theoretically spares Smartmatic from a key complaint about
touchscreen machines in the United States. Those machines won't have paper
records in November, although a growing number of U.S. states will mandate
them in future elections.

Mugica, an engineering graduate from Caracas' Simon Bolivar University,
founded Smartmatic in 2000 with three other Venezuelans. The software firm
handles its finance and sales in Boca Raton but does most research and
development in Venezuela. It reported sales of $1.47 million for the six
months ending June 30, 2003, according to Dun & Bradstreet.

Mugica said the firm began developing its electronic voting system in
2001, inspired partly by Venezuela's 2000 elections. He said the data
storage and transmission will be encrypted, which should frustrate
tampering.

But U.S. computer experts have found numerous security flaws in
touchscreen machines, including incorrect use of cryptography, said Aviel
D. Rubin, a computer science professor at Johns Hopkins University.

"Computers can be made to produce any outcome that you want without
anybody really knowing that's what was done," Rubin said.

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press.



footnote 2
http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=3D20040719-09445=
5-3033r

The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
Venezuela seen as testing ground
By Alexandra Olson
ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published July 20, 2004

CARACAS, Venezuela -- Despite an electronic-voting fiasco in 2000 and the
furor over electronic voting in the United States, Venezuela is using
touch-screen computers that have never been used in an official election
for its recall referendum on Hugo Chavez's presidency.

=A0=A0=A0 Critics fear touch-screen voting machines in the Aug. 15 vote cou=
ld
fail spectacularly, exacerbating a crisis over Mr. Chavez's rule that has
polarized the world's No. 5 oil exporter and killed dozens in sporadic
political violence.

=A0=A0=A0 The touch-screen machines on which a third of the U.S. electorate=
will
vote in November are dangerously vulnerable to hackers, rigging and
mechanical failure, computer scientists generally agree.

=A0=A0=A0 That didn't deter the Venezuelan Elections Council, dominated by
pro-Chavez members, from choosing Smartmatic Corp., a little-known Boca
Raton, Fla., company, to provide similar technology -- albeit with a
printed record of each vote -- for the referendum.

=A0=A0=A0 Smartmatic has never tested its machines in an official election,=
and
no independent analysis or certification of its touch-screen system has
been conducted, although the council says the system will be audited
before the vote.

=A0=A0=A0 In the United States, touch-screen computers are partly an attemp=
t to
eliminate hanging chads and other problems associated with the disputed
2000 presidential election results in Florida. Mr. Chavez often mentions
the Florida debacle to question President Bush's credentials.

=A0=A0=A0 Yet in Venezuela, electronic voting that same year produced what =
is
widely called as the "mega-flop."

=A0=A0=A0 The biggest election in Venezuela's history was supposed to take =
place
on May 28, 2000. More than 6,000 public offices were up for grabs, and Mr.
Chavez, elected in 1998, was seeking re-election.

=A0=A0=A0 But two days before the vote, Venezuela's supreme court postponed=
it
over problems with computer software needed to tabulate votes and register
more than 36,000 candidates. It was humiliating for election officials who
had insisted things were going smoothly.

=A0=A0=A0 The Omaha, Neb.-based software provider, Election Systems & Softw=
are,
blamed constant changes by election authorities in posting thousands of
candidates.

=A0=A0=A0 Electronic voting did take place in July 2000 with few problems. =
But
the postponement prompted authorities to reject any new deal with ES&S and
to retire machines from the Spanish company Indra.

=A0=A0=A0 This year, a pro-Chavez majority on the five-member elections cou=
ncil
voted to sign a $91 million contract with Smartmatic and its two partners,
Venezuelan software company Bitza Corp., and Cantv, Venezuela's publicly
held telephone company.

=A0=A0=A0 Council President Francisco Carrasquero said Smartmatic won based=
on
three factors: security, cost and technology transfer.

=A0=A0=A0 In the past, Venezuela depended on Indra or other foreign firms t=
o run
its elections, Mr. Carrasquero said, and Smartmatic is providing Venezuela
licenses for its systems.

=A0=A0=A0 "Now it's in the council's hands, and we'll have autonomy designi=
ng
automated elections," he said.

=A0=A0=A0 Mr. Carrasquero also argued that electronic voting is the best wa=
y to
avoid ballot stuffing he said marred Venezuelan elections before Mr.
Chavez came to power.

=A0=A0=A0 The Smartmatic deal includes 20,000 touch-screen voting machines =
and
plans to run regional elections in September. Another $24 million contract
for the referendum is in the works.

=A0=A0=A0 Two elections council members abstained from the Smartmatic vote.=
One
of them, Ezequiel Zamora, said: "I thought a process as simple as a
referendum should be done manually. An untried system is always going to
create doubt."

=A0=A0=A0 Mr. Chavez, whose term runs to 2007, can be recalled if the oppos=
ition
gets more votes than the nearly 3.8 million he received in 2000. Elections
would be held within 30 days to choose someone to serve out his term.

=A0=A0=A0 Mr. Chavez says the recall is an effort by a corrupt Venezuelan e=
lite,
backed by Washington, to end his leftist revolution on behalf of the poor.
Venezuela's opposition accuses the president of gradually imposing an
authoritarian regime.

=A0=A0=A0 Opponents initially objected to the electronic-voting plans, then
asked for a simultaneous audit using a small sampling of the machines.

=A0=A0=A0 "Smartmatic is a company that hasn't tested its system anywhere i=
n the
world -- and it's going to test it here in Venezuela in a process as
important as the recall referendum," complained Luis Planas, a member of
the opposition Social Christian Party (COPEI).

=A0=A0=A0 Suspicion deepened after the Miami Herald reported in May that a
Venezuelan state industrial development fund had invested in Bitza, whose
role is to integrate manual votes into the electronic system. About 10
percent of voters, mostly in rural areas, will cast manual ballots.

=A0=A0=A0 Bitza quickly announced it would buy back the government's 28 per=
cent
stake.

=A0=A0=A0 Smartmatic President Antonio Mugica, who also co-founded Bitza,
insists his firm is apolitical, and he brushed aside concerns about
Smartmatic's inexperience.

=A0=A0=A0 "There is no voting system more secure than this one," Mr. Mugica
said, tapping a machine's screen during a demonstration in his sleekly
furnished Caracas office.

=A0=A0=A0 A square piece of paper popped out of the computer, a physical re=
cord
of his vote. That, Mr. Mugica says, is the system's primary safeguard
against fraud: a paper trail that allows for a recount of any contested
election.

=A0=A0=A0 Voters must deposit the slip into a ballot box before they can
retrieve their IDs from polling officials.

=A0=A0=A0 The paper trail theoretically spares Smartmatic from a key compla=
int
about touch-screen machines in the United States. Those machines won't
have paper records in November, although a growing number of states will
mandate them in future elections.

=A0=A0=A0 Mr. Mugica, an engineering graduate from Simon Bolivar University=
in
Caracas, founded Smartmatic in 2000 with three other Venezuelans. The
software firm handles its finance and sales in Boca Raton but does most
research and development in Venezuela. It reported sales of $1.47 million
for the six months ending June 30, 2003, according to Dun & Bradstreet.

=A0=A0=A0 Mr. Mugica said the firm began developing its electronic-voting s=
ystem
in 2001, inspired partly by Venezuela's 2000 elections. He said the data
storage and transmission will be encrypted, which should frustrate
tampering.

=A0=A0=A0 But U.S. computer specialists have found numerous security flaws =
in
touch-screen machines, including incorrect use of cryptography, said Aviel
D. Rubin, a computer science professor at Johns Hopkins University.

=A0=A0=A0 "Computers can be made to produce any outcome that you want, with=
out
anybody really knowing that's what was done," Mr. Rubin said.
=A0=A0=A0



Copyright =A9 2004 News World Communications, Inc.=20

Footnote 3 (Miami Herald web site)=20

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/americas/8780409.htm?ERIGHT=
S=3D-2620598676294324475miami::***@peak.org&KRD_RM=3D2ikripioimlpkiiiiii=
iiirnmo|Larry|Y&is_rd=3DY


Posted on Fri, May. 28, 2004

ELECTIONS

Venezuela owns stake in ballots

The Venezuelan government has a 28 percent ownership of the company it=20
will use to help deliver voting results in future elections.


BY RICHARD BRAND AND ALFONSO CHARDY

***@herald.com

Ch=E1vez opponents claimed the deal to scrap the country's 6-year-old=20
machines was a maneuver to manipulate votes amid growing political=20
turmoil.


CARACAS -- A large and powerful investor in the software company that will=
=20
design electronic ballots and record votes for Venezuela's new and much=20
criticized election system is the Venezuelan government itself, The Herald=
=20
has learned.


Venezuela's investment in Bizta Corp., the ballot software firm, gives the=
=20
government 28 percent ownership of the company it will use to help deliver=
=20
voting results in future elections, including the possible recall=20
referendum against President Hugo Ch=E1vez, according to records obtained b=
y=20
The Herald.


The deal to scrap the country's 6-year-old machines -- for a $91 million=20
system to be built by two fledgling companies that have never been used in=
=20
an election before -- was already controversial among Ch=E1vez opponents wh=
o=20
claimed it was a maneuver to manipulate votes amid growing political=20
turmoil.


Ch=E1vez opponents told The Herald on Thursday they were stunned to learn=
=20
the government has a proprietary stake in a company critical to the=20
election process.


''The Venezuelan state? Are you kidding?,'' said Jes=FAs Torrealba, an=20
official in the Democratic Coordinator opposition group. ``It impugns the=
=20
credibility of the process. That is shocking.''


Government officials insist the investment is an effort to help support=20
private enterprise and its interest in a ballot software company is merely=
=20
coincidental, one of a dozen such investments made to help struggling=20
companies.


''The whole process led to a decision that was best for Venezuela,'' said=
=20
Bernardo Alvarez, Venezuela's ambassador in Washington.


But Venezuela is a nation bitterly polarized by Ch=E1vez's leftist populist=
=20
rule. Nearly every move by the government is scrutinized by opponents who=
=20
accuse Ch=E1vez of trying to impose an authoritarian regime.


GOVERNMENT FUNDS


Until a year ago, the Bizta Corp. was a struggling Venezuelan software=20
company with barely a sales deal to its name, records show. Then, the=20
Venezuelan government -- through a venture capital fund -- invested about=
=20
$200,000 and bought 28 percent of it.


The government's investment in Bizta made Venezuela Bizta's largest single=
=20
shareholder and, ultimately, its most important client.


The decision to replace the $120 million system built by Omaha-based=20
Election Systems & Software was made Feb. 16 under unusual circumstances.=
=20
Two of the five National Electoral Council members sympathetic to the=20
opposition complained that they had been largely shut out of the process.


''The selection process was secret and it didn't allow us to get any=20
information about the bidders and their products,'' board member Sobella=20
Mej=EDas said after the decision.


Other members knew about the government's investment, according to one=20
member who asked not to be identified.


The new system is to be built by the Smartmatic Corp., which is=20
incorporated in Florida, and programmed by Bizta, which also is registered=
=20
in Florida and Venezuela.


Pro-Ch=E1vez government officials and company executives interviewed by The=
=20
Herald say the Smartmatic-Bizta machines are among the most secure in the=
=20
world, and that the government's investment in Bizta was unrelated to=20
Bizta's bid for the voting machine contract.


''The companies that were chosen have the highest technical capacity,''=20
said Alvarez, the ambassador. ``In Venezuela there have been many fair=20
elections and there will be many more fair elections.''


But the Atlanta-based Carter Center, which has observed every major=20
Venezuelan electoral process since Ch=E1vez's election in 1998, said the=20
disclosure of the government's role in Bizta reinforces the need for=20
independent election audits.


''What we look at in any electoral process is whether each of the=20
components is transparent and auditable. In this case, we would include=20
these new machines,'' said Jennifer McCoy, who is leading the Carter=20
Center's mission in Venezuela. She said she was unaware of the=20
government's investment in Bizta.


Even without the political implications, the use of electronic voting=20
machines has been widely debated since the United States' 2000=20
presidential election. Stanford University Professor David Dill, who has=20
studied voting machines but is not specifically knowledgeable about the=20
new Venezuelan system, said almost any programmed electronic machine is=20
subject to possible manipulation.


'People just don't understand how easily these machines could fail to=20
record votes accurately -- even by being `fixed,' '' he said.


PAPER TRAIL


Smartmatic does produce a paper trail of votes as well, but Venezuelan=20
government critics claim it will be useless since an election recount=20
would be supervised by the Electoral Council, perceived as pro-Ch=E1vez.


The National Electoral Council members have hailed Bizta's=20
software-writing role as contributing to Venezuelan ''sovereignty'' over=20
their voting system, which replaces American-designed machines. Ch=E1vez, a=
n=20
outspoken critic of U.S. policy, is viewed as leftist and anti-American.


According to Bizta's 2002 financial statement, the most recent one filed=20
by the company in Venezuela, it was then a dormant firm that had no sales=
=20
and was slowly losing money.


In June 2003, however, a venture capital company called Sociedad de=20
Capital de Riesgo (SCR) invested about $200,000 in Bizta. The SCR is owned=
=20
by the Venezuelan government's Industrial Credit Fund.


In January, a top official in Venezuela's science ministry, Omar Montilla,=
=20
joined Bizta's board of directors to represent the government's three=20
million shares, records show.


Montilla, who is one of five directors, canceled a meeting with The Herald=
=20
and did not reply to repeated Herald queries.


One month after Montilla joined the board, the National Electoral Council=
=20
awarded Bizta and partners Smartmatic and CANTV the $91 million contract=20
to develop new voting machines. Bizta was hired to write the electronic=20
code that configured the names and parties of candidates on the touch=20
screens. Smartmatic would build and design the machines. CANTV, the=20
publicly held phone company, would provide the phone lines for the system=
=20
and election-day technical support.


The venture is largely the work of two little-known Venezuelan engineers:=
=20
Antonio Mugica Rivero and Alfredo Anzola Jaumotte, childhood friends and=20
recent engineering school graduates.


Mugica, 30, is the president of Smartmatic and a founder of Bizta. Anzola,=
=20
30, is the president of Bizta and the vice president of Smartmatic,=20
corporate records from Venezuela show.


NO CONNECTIONS


Both executives say they have no political allegiances. Neither signed a=20
petition drive seeking Ch=E1vez's recall.


Anzola initially told The Herald that one of the reasons the electoral=20
council selected the group was that it had no connection to either the=20
government or the opposition.


When told in a subsequent interview in Caracas that Bizta papers showed=20
the government had an investment in his company through SCR, Anzola and=20
Mugica said they viewed the investment as a loan.


''We really don't want to be involved in politics,'' said Wladimir=20
Serrano, head of the governments venture capital fund. ``Our role is=20
strictly financial and technical.''


Bizta ''remains a private company, with some government shares but without=
=20
any say on our part on its day to day activities or its strategic programs=
=20
and policies,'' Serrano said.


SUBSTANTIAL POWER


But Harvard Professor Ricardo Hausmann, a former Venezuelan official who=20
also has worked as the chief economist of the Inter-American Development=20
Bank, said any investor holding a 28 percent stake in a company would=20
likely have substantial power to make decisions.


''For example, Verizon is the largest shareholder in CANTV, holding 28=20
percent, and it has control of the company's management,'' said Hausmann,=
=20
who sits on the CANTV board. With Bizta, ``The government's influence will=
=20
depend on the arrangement between the government and other shareholders.''


SCR's stock purchase in Bizta was part of a broader effort to help=20
start-up companies that could bring Venezuela international prestige in a=
=20
wide range of industries, Serrano said.


He provided a list of a dozen other companies in which SCR has invested.


Most of the 20,000 Smartmatic-Bizta machines will be delivered over the=20
summer from the factory in Italy, officials say.
Dan Christensen
2004-08-18 20:52:09 UTC
Permalink
Would feel more comfortable if they were owned by the US government?

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
pedro martori
2004-08-19 00:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Venezuela es el único país del mundo donde una oposición "fascista" pide
elecciones y un gobierno "democrático" las niega"...

Manuel Caballero

==========================================================
Post by Dan Christensen
Would feel more comfortable if they were owned by the US government?
Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 7/12/2004
Lesoscar
2004-08-19 11:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Would feel more comfortable if they were owned by the US government?
Probably so, Nazi Dan.
Agur,
Oscar
Dan Christensen
2004-08-19 15:39:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesoscar
Post by Dan Christensen
Would feel more comfortable if they were owned by the US government?
Probably so, Nazi Dan.
oSScar, oSScar, oSScar....

What ARE we to do with you? You are absolutely the LAST person who should be
goose-stepping around here calling people "Nazis." It is you, after all, who
supports these cruel sanctions against the Cuban people that even Amnesty
International must now concede are:

1. "highly detrimental to Cubans' enjoyment of a range of economic, social
and cultural rights,"

2. "has had a very significant negative impact on the overall performance
of the national economy, diverting the optimal allocation of resources from
the prioritized areas and affecting the health programmes and services,"

3. "compromises the quality of life of the population, specifically the
children, the elderly and the infirm,"

4. "is used to harm the most vulnerable members of society."

In a report critical of Cuba earlier this year, even the UNHRC was forced to
concede that, "It is also impossible to ignore the disastrous and lasting
economic and social effects of the embargo imposed on the Cuban population
over 40 years ago." (SCC archives)

Since these reports were published, the Bush regime has even moved to
INTENSIFY these cruel sanctions!

According to the UN Genocide Convention, sanctions which "deliberately
inflict on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part," constitute a form of genocide. As
such, your beloved embargo can even be seen as a form of genocide -- your
very own Final Solution. Makes you proud, don't it, Nazi boy!

Dan

Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
Lesoscar
2004-08-20 12:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
What ARE we to do with you?
Poor Nazi Dan, he must be delirious with thoughts of dictating what with that
royal "we" he thinks he can do.
Instead, you should be asking your Nazi idol in Havana what to write about the
AI report on Castro's jails.
Agur,
Oscar
Crusader
2004-09-14 23:49:25 UTC
Permalink
In his own delusional mind ,he perhaps "feel"(notice i don`t mean
"think":)his delusion is shared by the majority of people,i would call that
schizophreny-paranoide.Poor man>>>>>>>
--
Truth needs no laws to support it. Throughout history, only liars and lies
resort to the courts to mandate belief
Post by Lesoscar
Post by Dan Christensen
What ARE we to do with you?
Poor Nazi Dan, he must be delirious with thoughts of dictating what with that
royal "we" he thinks he can do.
Instead, you should be asking your Nazi idol in Havana what to write about the
AI report on Castro's jails.
Agur,
Oscar
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